ReClock 1.8.6.4

[Jong]

....I definitely see a difference in how smooth the video is with reclock BUT at the cost of audio being dropped? I dont think thats a good trade off as the audio dropping is more distracting then a repeat video frame - either is bad if its too frequent.

And that's why James made the argument that ReClock with bitstreaming isn't ideal. ReClock + bit perfect PCM can keep everything in sync without resorting to dropping frames.

Yes, exactly. That is why James would really like to remove bitstreaming altogether (I get the impression!). If you use Reclock as it is supposed to be used this "trade off" is not required. Reclock only has this problem when you tie its hands behind its back, as you do when you use it in "Bitstreaming Mode"

 

[SamuriHL]

Yes, exactly. That is why James would really like to remove bitstreaming altogether (I get the impression!). If you use Reclock as it is supposed to be used this "trade off" is not required. Reclock only has this problem when you tie its hands behind its back, as you do when you use it in "Bitstreaming Mode"

I know. But *I* appreciate the option being there. I also understand and respect the limitations in this case. There's no such thing as a perfect HTPC. It's always a bunch of tradeoffs. It's a matter of which tradeoff you want to deal with at any given time. ReClock's preference is to sacrifice audio in order to keep smooth video when it's not allowed to do what it was designed to. I think that's a fair tradeoff. If you didn't care about smooth video playback in the first place, you wouldn't be using ReClock. But tying its hands and then expecting it to perform flawlessly is a bit of a stretch. So James, I don't care if you make it a hidden option so as to cut down on confusion, but, please don't remove it altogether. There are times it's useful. To some people.

 

[Jong]

I know. But *I* appreciate the option being there. I also understand and respect the limitations in this case. There's no such thing as a perfect HTPC. It's always a bunch of tradeoffs. It's a matter of which tradeoff you want to deal with at any given time. ReClock's preference is to sacrifice audio in order to keep smooth video when it's not allowed to do what it was designed to. I think that's a fair tradeoff. If you didn't care about smooth video playback in the first place, you wouldn't be using ReClock. But tying its hands and then expecting it to perform flawlessly is a bit of a stretch. So James, I don't care if you make it a hidden option so as to cut down on confusion, but, please don't remove it altogether. There are times it's useful. To some people.

Oh yeah. I agree with that completely. I was re-enforcing your point to the OP, not to you.

Before HD, before Reclock had an AC3 encoder and before practical options for PCM over HDMI I was using bitstreaming for DD/DTS and I was one of those most fervently arguing it needed to be retained and that it was a good option if you knew what you were doing. If you search back a few years in this forum you will see. I still feel the same although the need now, with PCM over HDMI and much improved resampling, is less great IMHO.

But as you have done too I still think its necessary to point out it is "not recommended" for a reason! (on the other hand I don't know why using vsync with DXVA is "not recommended", it just works, but that is a completely separate matter! )

 

[SamuriHL]

Actually, I have another thought. This will be *MAJORLY* controversial, however. James won't like this or likely even go near it. I'd go for a hidden option on this one if possible. I would like an option to turn off video syncing for bitstreamed types. This would give everyone what they really are after. I use ReClock on the machine that can bitstream so that it uses exclusive mode for PCM 48/16 (lazy damn player developers!). That gives me channel mapping and bypasses the stupid windows audio crap. In that case I don't NEED video syncing if I'm bitstreaming TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. With PCM ReClock is uninhibited so no need to shut off video syncing. On my other machine where I'm doing 24Hz the need for ReClock is undisputed, but, I don't bitstream there. How about it, James? Willing to play along and offer us a controversial option to use ReClock simply to fix the audio shortcomings of TMT3?

 

[SamuriHL]

Oh yeah. I agree with that completely. I was re-enforcing your point to the OP, not to you.

Before HD, before Reclock had an AC3 encoder and before practical options for PCM over HDMI I was using bitstreaming for DD/DTS and I was one of those most fervently arguing it needed to be retained and that it was a good option if you knew what you were doing. If you search back a few years in this forum you will see. I still feel the same although the need now (with PCM over HDMI) is less great IMHO.

But as you have done too I still think its necessary to point out it is "not recommended" for a reason! (on the other hand I don't know why using vsync with DXVA is "not recommended", it just works, but that is a completely separate matter! )

Yup. I agree with all of this. For people that don't know any better, not recommended holds true. If they're willing to accept the reality then it's all good. Just need to educate people on why it's not recommended as it's not obvious to many.

 

[andy o]

Actually, I have another thought. This will be *MAJORLY* controversial, however. James won't like this or likely even go near it. I'd go for a hidden option on this one if possible. I would like an option to turn off video syncing for bitstreamed types. This would give everyone what they really are after. I use ReClock on the machine that can bitstream so that it uses exclusive mode for PCM 48/16 (lazy damn player developers!). That gives me channel mapping and bypasses the stupid windows audio crap. In that case I don't NEED video syncing if I'm bitstreaming TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. With PCM ReClock is uninhibited so no need to shut off video syncing. On my other machine where I'm doing 24Hz the need for ReClock is undisputed, but, I don't bitstream there. How about it, James? Willing to play along and offer us a controversial option to use ReClock simply to fix the audio shortcomings of TMT3?

Well, it could just be an improved activation dialog ("Use Reclock with xxxx"?) with only two choices instead of four, yes or no, and with the two other choices still configurable via ReClock configuration. And, with a configurable timer, and compatible with MC remotes.

EDIT: I do fully support your proposition though (in fact, a non-hidden option would be preferable). I was just proposing a "non-controversial" approach that would make a good compromise (besides being actually more useful than the current dialog which can't be controlled with a remote unless you have mapped "Alt" on it).

 

[SamuriHL]

Well, it could just be an improved activation dialog ("Use Reclock with xxxx"?) with only two choices instead of four, yes or no, and with the two other choices still configurable via ReClock configuration. And, with a configurable timer, and compatible with MC remotes.

As long as nothing pops up when I'm trying to watch a movie. Here's what I'm ultimately after:

-ReClock enabled for all PCM tracks with full video sync
-ReClock just simply doing passthrough for bitstreaming (DD/DTS/TrueHD/DTS-HD MA/etc) with no video sync *AS AN OPTION*

This would be ideal for me. Yes, PCM decoding can be used and that's all good. But what I'm seeing is that some people don't want to give up bitstreaming and I can accept that. (The loss of dialnorm metadata, possibly no room correction depending on the receiver, etc...valid reasons to want bitstreaming IMO). So, if we could make this an option I would be absolutely psyched as I'm sure a few others would be. I've not personally had any sync problems with bitstreaming, but, I can certainly see how there could be. And dropping an audio frame may not be acceptable to some people. It's a preference thing. I'm just asking for the option to decide which preference you want.

 

[andy o]

Yeah I edited above just to clarify.

(The loss of dialnorm metadata, possibly no room correction depending on the receiver, etc...valid reasons to want bitstreaming IMO)

I think dialnorm is pretty much a non-issue (though I may have brought it up before) since it's only a level fix that you can compensate with your receiver's volume knob. The room correction differences though, I'm still not convinced that some receivers do that. Some people say it, but when I asked for specifics it turns out that they either heard it somewhere else and don't have the receiver themselves, or they just tried it briefly and can't test again. As it happened with the Onkyo, there might be other reasons as to why PCM and bitstream are processed differently, like sampling rate differences, which might make people think their receiver processes bitstream but not PCM.

 

[SamuriHL]

Yeah I edited above just to clarify.



I think dialnorm is pretty much a non-issue (though I may have brought it up before) since it's only a level fix that you can compensate with your receiver's volume knob. The room correction differences though, I'm still not convinced that some receivers do that. Some people say it, but when I asked for specifics it turns out that they either heard it somewhere else and don't have the receiver themselves, or they just tried it briefly and can't test again. As it happened with the Onkyo, there might be other reasons as to why PCM and bitstream are processed differently, like sampling rate differences, which might make people think their receiver processes bitstream but not PCM.

Yea, I'm in agreement with you on this. I've never felt there was any significant difference between *PROPERLY* decoded, bit perfect PCM and bitstreaming. I've done numerous tests with my PS3 and (at the time) my Xonar and it was a wash for the most part. The Onkyo...I think we all know how I feel about that at this point so I'm just going to leave that alone. But I can understand where some people might want bitstreaming for whatever reason. It's just, IMO, another option that aids people in the quest for the "perfect" HTPC setup. Personally I'd prefer not to have it pop up every time and rather just make it an option in the settings. Even if it did work with the MC remote, it's just another distraction from getting to the movie IMO.

 

[andy o]

Oh I do have other reasons to bitstream but have to do mostly with 6.1/7.1 audio and metadata such as DPLII, DDEX flags.

 

[SamuriHL]

That's the whole point is that having the options available to us would enhance our HTPC experience depending on what particular set of preferences we want to follow. It's easy for us to say bit perfect PCM + ReClock syncing is superior, but, it may not be for every one in every case. So, I'm just saying having more options is good as long as they're well understood. And I'll advocate for the option and deal with the education if needs be.

 

[andy o]

I think just a big fat "not recommended" warning would be just fine.

 

[el Filou]

Edit: sorry, noticed there was a thread dedicated to TMT3 b170, moved my post there.

 

[Razoola]

I have to say that I personnally feel removing bitstreaming is a bad idea. One of its main features is the minimal cpu usage while still obtaining a very good audio level with no video stutter. This is very good for people with lower cpu spec.

I feel that as a reclock from way back in the day when ogg first created it that its main purpose to remove video stutter has been lost a little in the aim to find better audio. This is to a point where is seems at least priority is more now on getting perfect audio at the exspence of video stutter. My case and point is the way reclock will not go green with bitstreaming when it should (james says due to tighter timing range expected)

Really reclock should be aiming to solve the giggles with bitstreaming rather than dropping it as there are people who would rather use it. You could refashion reclock and make the bitstreaming mode for basic users and resampling for advanced.

 

[Jong]

Don't panic! I was not saying James actually has a plan to remove bitstreaming; I think he knows how popular it is with some Reclock users. I just think he wishes he could remove it because of all the problems it generates here.

 

[thedatman]

Verification needed

I just ordered a new MOBO and ati 5450. Just for grins I changed the settings as I would need to after I swap the gear. I got 2ch 16bit handed down to my analog card with no way to change to 5.1 or 7.1.

Has any done this and verified that all analog channels are used?

 

[thedatman]

I am all but sure this new work around will not work for my system.

On all prior builds TMT3 has the option of choosing the audio output, headphones,stereo, 5.1, 7.1 and not the soundcard. With 170 the only options for my soundcard is headphones or stereo so I'm all but certain that will be the final outcome of this upgrade.

I might refuse the order or the upgrade may solve the problems I have with zoomplayer.

 

[SamuriHL]

I'm not sure you're understanding how the method works here. In TMT3, you are going to select your ATI card, HDMI interface, and PCM decoding. ReClock is going to be set to output to your analog solution. In the Windows sound control panel, you're going to set the ATI HDMI device to 7.1 channels. That should do what you want.

 

[thedatman]

ok I did that. I have it set to ati hdmi audio and pcm mixing. When I did the 1st test reclock opened and I had 2 ch sound from my audiocard. If I were to switch it to my audiocard I'd only have those 2 options, headphones or stereo.With this build I can't use my soundcard except for stereo. No matter how I set it up. I figure TMT cannot properly use my audiocard. With the realtek audio I had all the options.

I tried all the Echo driver options even the brand new ones.

 

[GrandeBoma]

I thought I had sync problems with audio on reclock and tmt3, but checking better I think it might be something else. The audio has random hiccups, which result in audio out of sync. then the sync is achieved again, with a second hiccup. This happens expecially when watching HD tracks, seldom with dd and dts lossy. it doesn't happen without reclock and it doesn't affect pdvd. It is not related to the setup of reclock since I tried all output settings. Could it be a buffer problem? How many ms should I type in the box? I currently use 200 ms