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Questions About Inner-Ring Marking Copy Protection on Discs?

Discussion in 'AnyDVD HD (Blu-ray issues)' started by My Life Is Tech, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. My Life Is Tech

    My Life Is Tech Well-Known Member

    I've heard about the inner-ring markings in an unwritable section of some movies, and I have a few questions about it.

    Does this affect only HD DVDs and Blu-Rays, or does it also affect DVDs?

    Is there anyway to copy such discs with this protection, and have them playable in any blu-ray player? I ask this because I've heard that if you keep the copy protection in the ISO file, and burn the protected image to BD-R mediums, not all blu-ray players will play the disc because it lacks the extra bit of information in the ring. Similarly, if you burn the image unprotected, not all blu-ray players will play the disc.

    If any of this information is incorrect, please correct me.

    Thank you for your time.
  2. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL

    That's the ROM mark you're talking about, the barcode info on the small inner plastic ring. It's not a protection itself. Consumer drives can read that but not recreate it. It's present on EVERY type of retail disc. From CD's to uhd bd's. Nothing an iso or any other container can replicate.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P with Tapatalk
  3. My Life Is Tech

    My Life Is Tech Well-Known Member

    Ah, so with that being said, would the lack of the barcode cause any DVD/Blu-ray players to not play the disc?

    I ask this because of this particular post from Jeff R 1 back in 2014: https://forum.redfox.bz/threads/keep-protection-blu-ray-hd-dvd-ticked-or-unticked.61039/#post-391638
    "Some things can't be saved in an ISO container _ there are physical markings on a commercial Blu-ray disc that can't be duplicated as they are put there at the factory.
    This is why you can't make a protected copy on a BD-R and expect it to play in a licensed player."

    In bold is the particular part that caught my eye.
  4. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL

    It would indeed. While it's not a protection by itself, it is an identifier that the players 'check' to see if it's a retail disc and it is used in a way by the actual protection on the disc.

    Protected disc -> ROM mark check -> present: keep on playing. Absent: don't play

    It's the same reason why AnyDVD must have seen the original disc at least once, before it will be able to decrypt a protected iso of that title version.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P with Tapatalk
  5. My Life Is Tech

    My Life Is Tech Well-Known Member

    When AnyDVD sees the original disc and it's seen the barcode on it, does it by chance put that information in a local temporary file somewhere on the hard drive where we can potentially copy and save it for future use, like say if we had to migrate AnyDVD to another computer and decrypt the protected ISO file on it?

    Also, if one burns the ISO to BD-R medium unprotected, would that allow it to play without issue, or would some players still refuse to play it?

    And if neither protected or unprotected burns work, then how exactly are we to achieve a playable copy of any disc in a blu ray player?
  6. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    I have to interrupt.
    The ROM mark is not a bar code. The player also doesn't "check" for its existence, though the drive will need to read it during player authentication.
    It's a special area in the inner area of a BDROM, that doesn't exist on a BD-R(E), that's all.
    It contains encrypted information, that is required to generate keys that decrypt the video content.

    Because it doesn't exist on a writeable disc, you can't copy the disc 1:1, a part of the information required for decryption will be missing.

    After AnyDVD has decrypted the content, there is simply no need for it any more, which is why such a copy will play.
  7. mbarnstijn

    mbarnstijn Well-Known Member

    @Pete, just to make it clear: the AnyDVD Protected ISO rip does NOT contain the ROM mark data, does it? So a protected ISO image is useful for backup but not playback, unless it is played on a system where AnyDVD can do the decryption. The unprotected ISO can be burned/played without AnyDVD doing anything.

    (Unless, of course, the original disc has Cinavia, which is a whole other problem. Cinavia can be removed from a rip if you need to make a physical disc for playback in a consumer player, but that requires modifying the audio track in ways that I personally find horrible to hear.)

  8. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL

    It's not in the iso no, but as I said, AnyDVD must have seen the original at least once more BEFORE it can decrypt a protected iso.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P with Tapatalk
  9. My Life Is Tech

    My Life Is Tech Well-Known Member

    Question... after AnyDVD has seen that original disc with the ROM mark, does it place that encrypted information from the ROM mark within a file inside a local database which we could copy to another computer if desired? Thus if we had to move all of our protected ISOs to another computer, and thus need AnyDVD to decrypt them, we don't need the original disc, just the database files which contains the information from the original disc?
  10. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL

    No it doesn't, once AnyDVD has seen the original, it compares that info (from the entire disc, not just the encrypted part) with info from the protected iso. When it finds a match, it knows how to properly handle the protection on the iso without needing the encrypted section.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P with Tapatalk
  11. My Life Is Tech

    My Life Is Tech Well-Known Member

    Ah, so unfortunately I'm assuming that means that if we copy such a disc with the protection saved on the ISO, that we can't decrypt it later on another machine without the original disc? If so, that's unfortunate... could there possibly be a software update to address this issue?
  12. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    You can. Once AnyDVD has seen the disc, it will work an any other PC as well, even without the ROM mark present.
  13. My Life Is Tech

    My Life Is Tech Well-Known Member

    Ah, so even if I copy the disc with the keep protection box ticked, which would lack the ROM mark, another computer would still be able to decrypt the protected ISO with a different instance of AnyDVD, correct?

    If so, that's excellent to hear. Sorry for my confusion. :p
  14. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    Yes. Provided, it has Internet access. Otherwise the next release of AnyDVD will have the key on board, then even offline.
    cybrsage likes this.
  15. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL

    Yes, you would be able do. AnyDVD really only needs to see the original disc once (whether it's you or someone a couple hundred miles away that has your exact same version). Once it's known to "the anydvd system", it'll work for EVERY anydvd provided it can connect to the OPD and it'll get decrypted, even if you don't have the original close at hand (eg stored in a cabinet in the attic).

    As to the confusion, don't worry about it, that's why we're here to help get rid of it ;)
    cybrsage likes this.
  16. My Life Is Tech

    My Life Is Tech Well-Known Member

    Ah, I gotcha, thanks for the clarification, and I'm assuming that by connecting to the OPD, it only has to do that once and then that information would be stored locally in the temporary folder which we could copy, correct? Then we shouldn't need to connect to the internet for another machine if we already have that cache file if my understanding is correct.
  17. Krawk

    Krawk Well-Known Member

    I would presume this sort of check happens on say a Sony Playstation. The system is checking for presence of code that you cannot write when making a copy.
  18. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL

    You assume correctly, once it has connected to the onlinde database, the decryption info is stored in the local database (a change you'd see reflected in the anydvd status window too. It would say "Using local database" instead of "Using online database"). Even without an internet connection it would then still be able to decrypt that title properly
    cybrsage likes this.
  19. My Life Is Tech

    My Life Is Tech Well-Known Member

    I wonder if one were to remove all the protection from the blu-ray to make a unprotected backup disc, given that it doesn't have Cinavia, if systems like the PS3 among other blu-ray players, would still play the disc, because if it doesn't have protection, is there any need for it to check for the ROM mark? Especially if you were to make a DVD of home videos, which obviously wouldn't have protection nor any kind of markings, would suck if you couldn't watch the videos you made on such devices when you went through all the effort to get them onto a disc.

    That's excellent to hear, thanks for all the information Ch3vr0n, I really appreciate it. :)
  20. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    Again: it is not a "check" and it happens implicitly in the drive, not the player, because the BDROM mark contains vital data for decryption.
    So there is no "check" as in "is the BDROM mark present", that is nonsense.
    It's "I can decrypt" or "I can't decrypt".

    Insert a decrypted BD-R and no player or drive will care about any ROM mark.
    cybrsage likes this.