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Cinavia Protected Disks and Blu-ray Players (disks and players ONLY)

dvdit said:
Good to know. I currently use SALT and THE KARATE KID.
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Yea, any of those will work. I've got The Losers, Salt, Karate Kid 2010, Green Hornet, and probably a couple more that I'm not thinking of right now. Any of those will make good tests.
 
It should be noted that the initial version of CloneBD won't remove Cinavia. If Cinavia becomes more of a threat going forward, you can bet that it will get updated at some point to do so. :)
 
Just finished the movie only backup of the problematic disc "BLACKTHRON" and now it plays back on my computer with Powerdvd 9 without issue. Seems like going with full backup and keeping BD-J might create problems down the road.
 
Yup. I can't say I'm surprised by that. But, at least now you have a solution for problematic discs.
 
SamuriHL said:
If Cinavia becomes more of a threat going forward, you can bet that it will get updated at some point to do so. :)
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Finaly :bowdown:, iam glad you see it my way for a change. That's what iam saying the whole time, that cinavia protected backups might be useless because of that !!

If by any chance the protection will evolve to such an level that it won't need any cinavia firmware from the dvdplayer but instead it get triggered by an updated firmware that suppose to be present on the movie disc then you are pretty much screwed !!

like, signal checks if player needs firmware, firmware is indeed outdated, so it checks movie disc for the update firmware .. at this point your efforts to make and play an backup woud be fruitless since it didnt found the firmware !!
And if it did found one you woud be pretty much screwed all over again for the obvious reason..

do i dare to ask...again... are YOU WITH ME :rock: lol


cheerios,
 
No, I'm still not with you. You still aren't getting what I'm telling you. You're telling me that somehow they're going to include a firmware update for *EVERY KNOWN PLAYER* on a disc? RIGGGGGHHHHHTTTTTTTTT. And even if they *MAGICALLY* did, how, exactly, is it going to end up on my *MOVIE ONLY* backup? Oh, right, it won't. So no, we are definitely not on the same page. You keep saying that they can just magically update your player and you're screwed. NOT....going...to...happen. ESPECIALLY if you follow my advice and make *MOVIE ONLY* backups (note...nothing but the movie itself with the embedded Cinavia signal is contained in a *MOVIE ONLY* backup).
 
Really enjoying the conversation today. Lot of useful and informative posts. You are really making the case for movie only backup.
 
If a movie-only backup is created along the lines of AnyDVD HD and Clown_BD then you will have removed the menus, BD-J, BD+, and/or everything that isn't movie-related including any extraneous data. Without the BD-J how exactly could any payload be run on the player? There would be no payload to run, anyway. A non-Cinavia player won't do anything here other than happily play the backup.

With the above being said, yes, studios might attempt force firmware updates via new movie releases with the disc refusing to play without updating but if you remove everything and create a movie-only backup the firmware update won't be needed and the backup will play without any problem.
 
Yea, that's the thing, all the magical thinking is pointless once you start making movie only backups. There's nothing on that backup that can cause anyone with a non-cinavia player any kind of issue. That's the point I keep trying to make and is somehow getting lost in translation I think. Even with my paranoia theory of BD-J being used to enhance cinavia checking in the future (unlikely, but, at least possible from a technical standpoint), a movie only backup eliminates that, as well. What's NOT technically possible is that popping in a disc is suddenly going to update your player with cinavia automagically. I don't mind speculation if it's possible from a technical standpoint, but, when we get into "magical thinking" I start to get annoyed simply because there's so much FUD around cinavia already. Admittedly my "paranoia theories" don't help that, but, at least they're actually possible. :) And I admit when I write them that they're speculation and not very likely to happen. Simply that they're possible. What's being proposed about popping a disc in and suddenly all your backups are coasters is not. That's the difference that I'm trying to drive home here. Cinavia itself is a very simple concept. Embed a signal in the audio, have the player check for it, verify that the disc is a trusted source. That's *IT*. My suggestion that BD-J could be used to enhance the checking is just what I said...paranoia theory. I can take it further....and this is TECHNICALLY possible but incredibly unlikely. But think about this one for a minute. They include a list of players that are known to be Cinavia-enabled with a certain firmware level. Just a list...not actual firmware updates. The BD-J code checks the firmware level and displays a "you must update your firmware to play this disc" message. Is that likely? Oh God no. Is it possible? Sure.

That being said, guess what...my movie only backup concept still isn't affected by it. Why? Cause there's NOTHING but the movie on the disc. The cinavia signal is still embedded, sure, but, if the player ain't looking for it, it's harmless (other than theoretical audio quality loss. I'm not going there....). So yes, movie only backups....I think until we get CloneBD, that's the safest way to go. Not that it matters with current discs. None of the crap I've mentioned has been done, is likely to be done, or is even on the radar as far as we know.
 
DrinkLyeAndDie said:
If a movie-only backup is created along the lines of AnyDVD HD and Clown_BD then you will have removed the menus, BD-J, BD+, and/or everything that isn't movie-related including any extraneous data. Without the BD-J how exactly could any payload be run on the player? There would be no payload to run, anyway. A non-Cinavia player won't do anything here other than happily play the backup.

With the above being said, yes, studios might attempt force firmware updates via new movie releases with the disc refusing to play without updating but if you remove everything and create a movie-only backup the firmware update won't be needed and the backup will play without any problem.
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Exactly. In my last post I explained that they could keep a list of known players with a minimum firmware version that contains cinavia checking. If your player doesn't match, the BD-J code could pop up a "go screw yourself til you update, pal" message. But with a movie only copy, that crap gets removed. And that's still only theoretical. That's not been done.
 
OH, and P.S. with it being BD-J they could download an updated list of players and minimum firmware from their servers to keep it updated. How awesome is that? Ok, enough nonsense. It's possible, sure, but, we don't even have more than a handful of players that contain cinavia yet. So, no worrying about theoretical crap. :)
 
Adding the Panasonic DMP-BDT110 to the list that would not play backup of movie and menus only of the movie BLACKTHORN. This disc plays fine on Samsung 2550, Pioneer BDP-320, Sony S570. Won't play on PS3 and PowerDVD9.
 
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Cinavia (·)(·)

SamuriHL said:
No, I'm still not with you.
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Aargh.. in how many way's/languages do i have to say this to you :confused:


Mkay, listen up... maybe this will clear things up..

What i meant to say is , if the signal that you automatically backup aswell regardless of movie only or the whole shabaam method ... are you still with me on this/ am i right about that !?

If Yes .. proceed..

Now, if that signal gets updated to trigger AUTOMATICALLY upon playback and check not ONLY the player's firmware for the cinavia algorythem to get both to work like an handshake more or less before proceeding playback, but also will check the disk for an updated firmware (with cinavia systematics) right after it has checked and confirmed the dvdplayer is using indeed an old non cinavia-firmware ..

At that point my benevolent friend your MOVIE ONLY backup will be useless/fruitless, because the signal will not detect any cinavia-firmwares not from the player and not from the disc (since you stripped everything down to movie only) and at that point the signal might stop everything untill it finds any refference point to any cinavia firmware either present in the player or on the disk !!

I know its an LONGSHOT, but you were talking about magic :p


I know what you think, by stripping content/firmware/other files that are related to cinavia schematics everyting will turn out just fine..

Right !

Wrong...

You do seem to forget one thing that still is undefeatable/unremoveable ... the magicall signal that you still will and shall backup against your will :agree:


cheerios,
 
But if the player you use has no cinavia detector then the signal that's embedded in the audio can't magically stop the audio from playing so by having a system that has no cinavia detector in the player then there's no issue with the audio having cinavia in it as you can't 'update' the signal that's already embedded in a movie that's already been released. If they were to put in a signal that refuses to play back the audio unless it is played back by a player that has cinavia then people would just stop buying the discs as nearly all players out there at the moment don't have the ability to play back the signal even with a firmware update and that still wouldn't affect the discs that are already out.
 
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Adbear said:
But if the player you use has no cinavia detector then the signal that's embedded in the audio can't magically stop the audio from playing so by having a system that has no cinavia detector in the player then there's no issue with the audio having cinavia in it. If they were to put in a signal that refuses to play back the audio unless it is played back by a player that has cinavia then people would just stop buying the discs as nearly all players out there at the moment don't have the ability to play back the signal even with a firmware update and that still wouldn't affect the discs that are already out.
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This right here is my response, as well. I don't agree because what you're saying about the signal magically affecting a non-cinavia player is complete nonsense from a *technical* standpoint. Adbear has it right. You, sadly, still do not understand the basics of cinavia. I guess if adbear's post doesn't convince you of why you're wrong then we'll have to agree that we're not going to agree. :)

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
 
One last thing on this...you're confusing embedded signal with code that executes. That is where you are fundamentally wrong in how cinavia works. It's a marker not executable code. You seem to think the cinavia signal is what's doing the checking and audio muting. That is wrong. The player is doing that and only if it is programmed to check for the signal.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
 
Based on the current list of players and more recent posts in this thread, I'm guessing that the Sony S580 and S780 players are still from from Cinavia for the time being? Before next month, I was hoping to be able to pick up a relatively good 3-D supporting player with broad support/etc. that doesn't yet feature Cinavia.
 
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