Samuri's *UN*Official SlyPlayer(tm) Thread

[jbrisbin]

I am ambivalent about the idea of a hierarchy of auto-choices for audio. On one hand I am sure I don't want one hardcoded on the erroneous assumption that there is one answer. I would prefer the 'first one as default' rule that most players seem to use instead of a broken hardcoded list.

One the other hand, I find that many BD discs have the first stream set to AC3 5.1 with a higher resolution stream in some other position. I will start playback and after a while realize that the sound is a bit duller than I have become accustomed to, activate the popup to show information (including the audio stream characteristics) discover that it is low-fi and start looking for a better stream in the audio list, the turn off the 'show information' via the popup.

That is disruptive to the viewing experience and I think it could be done better.

When you say, "Also the discs themselves currently designate a default track.
My opinion is to respect that and then open it up for user selection.", you are saying that experience is good enough. I don't think it is.

The configurable audio hierarchy is more complex than I would like, but I am not aware of a simpler way to get the kind viewing experience I am hoping for.

As a concrete example, the interface used to reprioritize audio streams in Clown_BD works quite well, once I realized what the arrows in the margin were about.

 

[alpha0ne]

I am really looking forward to the SlyPlayer release, at last an answer to DRM that treats everyone as if they are a criminal oliceman:

 

[lmaolmao]

i would really like to know if it will be remote control friendly.

also, will it be possible to create an eventghost plugin rather than mapping remote buttons to keys?

i ask because there are only a few pieces of software which are truly remote friendly. i.e easy to switch subtitles/audio language mid playback.

 

[iansilv]

I'm wondering about simultaneous audio streaming of two different audio streams- like TrueHD out the hdmi and then dolby digital out a coax on a separate sound card- the reason for this is D-BOX syncing uses the dolbydigital. Some separate dvd players send both out the hdmi, so this would be a nice little feature if it could be done.

 

[canachi]

i would really like to know if it will be remote control friendly.

also, will it be possible to create an eventghost plugin rather than mapping remote buttons to keys?

i ask because there are only a few pieces of software which are truly remote friendly. i.e easy to switch subtitles/audio language mid playback.

Yes, please. This should be one of the priorities in SlyPlayer, this is essential for a good HTPC experience. I'm using LM remote keymap to get full functionality with PowerDVD 7, unfortunately it disables some keys on the keyboard and I have to activate-deactivate it every time I want to watch a movie.

Please put this request at the top of the list.

 

[n3w813]

Also, if not mentioned already, a good OSD like the ones used in ZP for use in a home theater environment. (File info, timebar, etc)

 

[bildungsroman]

Why another player?

Hi guys. I'm new; joined just so I could participate in this thread. I'm just wondering: is a full blown player (even a bare bones one) really what's needed here? Wouldn't it be more...parsimonious to make something (relatively) lightweight that runs in the background and enhances an existing (preferably free) player? VLC, MPlayer, MPC, etc. are all great players that are virtually universal but for BD playback (at least, I know, VLC is.) The problem is, of course, BD-Java and it's cryptic weirdness, thus preventing us from accessing our Blu Ray menus and features in all their glory. So, why not just create a filter/virtual machine that runs unobtrusively in the background while streaming to an existing player, which would output and control the stream; I hope that makes sense. This would also be more in keeping with the ethos, and the genius, of AnyDVD; it could even be integrated into AnyDVD as a new feature. Perhaps this would be more difficult than the current proposal, and I'm happy to be corrected. I'm not really a tech guy, just a cinephile who wants to watch his movies his way. Either way, great forum guys, and many thanks to SlySoft for a great piece of software.

 

[Illrigger]

That's not a bad idea, but it has a lot of caveats:

First, it would have to be an external plug-in for each player, as each one accesses the features in a different way. A bunch of plugins is a lot more work than one player. Also, the licenses that each player are developed under then cause problems for Slysoft, because slysoft does not produce Open Source software - free, yes; open, no. That's a problem for some of the developers of those apps.

Second, I have always been under the assumption that the majority of people using AnyDVD are using Windows Media Center, and I don't see how a plugin could extend the WMP/WMC architecture to the extent we are looking at without a separate player that replaces it being a whole lot easier. There's only so far that trickery with codecs can really take you before you find yourself spinng your wheels when you should have just written a player to start with.

Third, while freedom of choice is always a good thing, if all those other players were all that then Slysoft wouldn't be having to do this project at all. Being loyal to a product really only goes so far - they're working on a player that will replace VLC and the built-in WMC player and do everything as well as if not better than they do; why would you use anything but the best, especially if it's free?

 

[Adbear]

I can't see it being integrated into AnyDVD at any time, they've already said on numerous occasions that AnyDVD is there purely for the decrypting side of things and is being kept as simple as possible.
I'd also not want it as a plug in to something else, I'd just like a decent standalone player that can play back Blu-ray discs with menu's and HD audio

 

[lmaolmao]

I can't see it being integrated into AnyDVD at any time, they've already said on numerous occasions that AnyDVD is there purely for the decrypting side of things and is being kept as simple as possible.
I'd also not want it as a plug in to something else, I'd just like a decent standalone player that can play back Blu-ray discs with menu's and HD audio

"+1" is the appropriate phrase for these situations.

 

[Adbear]

"+1" is the appropriate phrase for these situations.

Did you read the post before mine? '+1' is not appropriate at all

 

[lmaolmao]

fine, here is a revised version.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I'd also not want it as a plug in to something else, I'd just like a decent standalone player that can play back Blu-ray discs with menu's and HD audio

+1
-------------------------------------------------------------

does that make more sense?

 

[bildungsroman]

Clarifications

Hi again. Thanks for the for the respectful responses.

First, it would have to be an external plug-in for each player, as each one accesses the features in a different way. A bunch of plugins is a lot more work than one player. Also, the licenses that each player are developed under then cause problems for Slysoft, because slysoft does not produce Open Source software - free, yes; open, no. That's a problem for some of the developers of those apps.

I'm not really talking about a plug-in or a codec as such. I'm really talking about something that works with other players the way AnyDVD works with other ripping/burning engines; seamless and unobtrusive. A virtual machine, which, whatever the solution maybe, will have to be included as result of BD-Java. I'm not asking for any player specific solutions. Many players, VLC in particular, are designed to act as video "clients" accepting streams from an extremely wide set of sources both local, net and web based in any format you could name. Those players which cannot do this would be SOL, fine by me.


As I understand it, the problem with BD-J is similar to the problem of BD+; in that it is both complex technically and totally proprietary. Thus, a legal open source solution is impossible (without permission; which they're not about to give). Dirty pool, indeed. So, that's where SlySoft, and it's unique legal "situation", comes in. You see, free/open source software isn't just slapped together by a few hackers on the fringes, it's made by real programmers working for real companies and foundations working within a legal framework. They can't just flout these (ridiculous) laws.

...while freedom of choice is always a good thing, if all those other players were all that then Slysoft wouldn't be having to do this project at all. Being loyal to a product really only goes so far - they're working on a player that will replace VLC and the built-in WMC player and do everything as well as if not better than they do; why would you use anything but the best, especially if it's free?

Loyalty has nothing to do with it, I simply don't want "one more application" just for playing Blu Ray; otherwise I'd use the software that came with my BD-drive/PC. I totally understand why some people simply want a player that will "just play" Blu Ray with menus and features with the desired sound and video quality, and that would be an accomplishment in and of itself. Furthermore, a standalone player and "background filter" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Is suspect that much of the core development would be the same for both things. As far as replacing VLC and other players, well if SlySoft really can (or wants to) do that, great; but I have my doubts. Building a media player application is no small chore, I'm sure; but building a universal media player takes a LOT of time and effort; especially time. It's not that I think Sly can't do it, I'm just not sure they would want to; or that it's necessary.

Once again thanks for being patient and respectful. I look forward to continuing this conversation.

 

[mattardo]

I think that one of the best reasons for a Slysoft Player could be best expressed with a simple comparison of Slysoft with other companies:

1- Most companies release updates very rarely, and when they do - the inevitable result is that more is broken than is fixed. This leads to more updates (maybe) down the road, ad nauseum.
1- Slysoft releases updates regularly and they have a very good track-record of improving things, rather than breaking things.

One more comparison, if I may:

2- Most companies don't give a flying hoot about what a customer wants from a product, and this shows in the end-product.
2- It's very rare to ever find a legitimate claim of Slysoft not listening to it's customers.

Take these 2 comparisons as you will - but I take them to indicate that this just might be the best thing that has ever happened to the HTPC crowd. Throwing this away in favor of a plugin that is still dependent on other applications and their fickleness? We would still be at the mercy of shitty companies that constantly remove more and more features and replace them with more and more useless features, not to mention the fact that Slysoft would constantly be laboring to make sure their plugin is compatible with different products: that just leads to more and more conflicts.

I would have to disagree with a plugin (or whatever it would be called)... I would like the whole shebang. Keep it nice and separate from other players, make it free, and we might see these other companies start stepping up their game. They would have to step it up a heck of a lot to compete, though!

 

[Barcoed]

Feature beg!

I’m eagerly awaiting SlyPlayer!

I’m currently using KMPlayer and really love the option to move the active picture area about – specifically I can slightly expand the width when watching material which has skinny black bars at the side and shift a 2.4:1 movie to the top of the screen (I use a projector) and then roll up the screen to nicely frame the active area.

Let’s hope this sort of option will appear in SlyPlayer! 8)

Also – I’m really keen to see the full range of lossless audio being passed in full (not downsampled) to a sound card with analogue out, so I can pass it to my elderly Yam amp via the 5.1 inputs.

...and post processing to remove judder for smoooooth motion.

Ooooh - the anticipation!!

 

[skirmash]

I have read many of the feature request and most make sense to me.

However, in my opinion, the most important thing initially is to be able to play the output of any DVD/BD or any other video file for that matter in its native format - completely unadulterated.

In the case of DVD and BD, this means reliably getting either the 480i or 1080p content in a sensible format from a networked source (assuming the network throughput is up to the job) out of the HDMI of your PC along with the chosen sound track (bit-streamed) unmolested. This alone is a massive first step and pretty much steps over and ahead of just about any other software/network player currently available.

If anyone can do it - Slysoft can!

 

[Illrigger]

I have read many of the feature request and most make sense to me.

However, in my opinion, the most important thing initially is to be able to play the output of any DVD/BD or any other video file for that matter in its native format - completely unadulterated.

In the case of DVD and BD, this means reliably getting either the 480i or 1080p content in a sensible format from a networked source (assuming the network throughput is up to the job) out of the HDMI of your PC along with the chosen sound track (bit-streamed) unmolested. This alone is a massive first step and pretty much steps over and ahead of just about any other software/network player currently available.

If anyone can do it - Slysoft can!

If you go back and read the original thread, you'll see that this may not be possible, or at least may not be worth the effort. Sly's goal is to get the same experience as playing the native content by any means. If this means the cost of getting the same bitstreamed lossless audio as the native content is sacrificing the DTS-HD light on your receiver coming on, then that's what they will do.

In the end, this should be good enough; after all, even the vaunted #1 BD player (the PS3) does not output the audio in the untouched manner you describe, and neither do many other standalone players. It shouldn't really matter at what stage the decode process happens, so long as the original lossless soundtrack coming out of the speakes is the end result.

Nothing is final yet, so it could still happen as you desire. My point is, if it doesn't, it's nothing to get upset over; just ignore that the receiver lights say LPCM intead of TruHD and enjoy the lossless sound. If you really really can't accept that, then ASUS and Arcsoft will be glad to take your money and there are tutorials over on AVS on how to do it once you've given it to them.

 

[SamuriHL]

To be perfectly clear on this...bit perfect is the same as bit streaming in terms of end result. The PS3 is bit perfect, as will SlyPlayer be. What this simply means is that the player decodes the DTS-HD MA or TrueHD track to LPCM, and sends it to the receiver as LPCM. This has advantages over bitstreaming with the MAJOR caveat that the player software doesn't molest the audio. The PS3 does not. SlyPlayer will not. The advantage is in content such as profile 1.1 and BD Live. With LPCM, the player can mix in an additional audio track such as director's commentary or other stuff. While this may not seem important to most people, it's part of the spec and can ONLY be achieved if the player decodes the audio.

In the end it's a matter of trust. The current software players choose to abuse the trust by decoding the audio and then down sampling it. I call this molesting the audio. And unfortunately, until recently, none of the players got it right! They'd molest it and then break it by introducing bugs!!! SlyPlayer will rebuild that trust in software player audio decoding. Bit perfect, without the nonsense. That's better than bitstreaming.

 

[skirmash]

To be perfectly clear on this...bit perfect is the same as bit streaming in terms of end result. The PS3 is bit perfect, as will SlyPlayer be. What this simply means is that the player decodes the DTS-HD MA or TrueHD track to LPCM, and sends it to the receiver as LPCM. This has advantages over bitstreaming with the MAJOR caveat that the player software doesn't molest the audio. The PS3 does not. SlyPlayer will not. The advantage is in content such as profile 1.1 and BD Live. With LPCM, the player can mix in an additional audio track such as director's commentary or other stuff. While this may not seem important to most people, it's part of the spec and can ONLY be achieved if the player decodes the audio.

In the end it's a matter of trust. The current software players choose to abuse the trust by decoding the audio and then down sampling it. I call this molesting the audio. And unfortunately, until recently, none of the players got it right! They'd molest it and then break it by introducing bugs!!! SlyPlayer will rebuild that trust in software player audio decoding. Bit perfect, without the nonsense. That's better than bitstreaming.

I agree completely with your view point. I should have been more careful with my choice of language. From an audio perspective, bit perfect is the goal.

 

[fuzz!]

I have read many of the feature request and most make sense to me.

However, in my opinion, the most important thing initially is to be able to play the output of any DVD/BD or any other video file for that matter in its native format - completely unadulterated.

In the case of DVD and BD, this means reliably getting either the 480i or 1080p content in a sensible format from a networked source (assuming the network throughput is up to the job) out of the HDMI of your PC along with the chosen sound track (bit-streamed) unmolested. This alone is a massive first step and pretty much steps over and ahead of just about any other software/network player currently available.

If anyone can do it - Slysoft can!

480i? I'd prefer a player that IVTCs NTSC movies to 480x24p as well as pitchshift PAL movies to 576x24p.

ooh and honor aspect flags to autocrop where widescreen content has been encoded in 4:3...

basically - UNf*ck the DVD format.