Reclock is sounding fantastic

[leeperry]

sorry but apparently you don't get what HA is trying to do. The fact that instrumental measurements detect differences doesn't substantiate your claim of you detecting them. Not in the least.

It's not religion, it's science.

yes, because as I previously said, noone's got a clue what to measure to begin w/

anyway, I understand the morogenic ppl try to be scientists...they simply fail big time(wrong vocation maybe?), as their player sounds very foobar'ed to many ppl(including me).

now that you've made your "science" point, maybe you will compare all the aforementioned players IRL w/ your own ears...and tell me that they sound 100% identical?

 

[ashlar]

yes, because as I previously said, noone's got a clue what to measure to begin w/

leeperry, there is nothing to measure. There are just ABX tests to conduct. The fact that a difference is measurable at the instrumental level does not prove that what you hear is that difference. It could still be placebo. Your reaction is the standard reaction at the mention of placebo. People react as if they're being accused of being stupid or something. Placebo is real, it works and it works for human beings in general, not selected individuals. There's nothing wrong with it.

anyway, I understand the morogenic ppl try to be scientists...they simply fail big time(wrong vocation maybe?), as their player sounds very foobar'ed to many ppl(including me).

now that you've made your "science" point, maybe you will compare all the aforementioned players IRL w/ your own ears...and tell me that they sound 100% identical?

I'm sorry but your definition of failing at a scientific approach is oxymoronic at best. They fail because you and others claim to be able to differentiate between players, without hard proof about your claims? It's like saying "I am right and you are wrong because I say so".

I don't want to "fight". As I repeatedly stated I admire your unending quest for perfection. On the other hand, as I said in the past, it's worth putting that in the right context. You are doing what is best for you. Which is not necessarily the "right" thing to do, it's simply the best for you.

I hope you don't get offended. Peace.

 

[leeperry]

well, who gives a damn about the morogenic forum tbh? they think that KMixer's distortion on XP is inaudible, yet it's easy to measure and is VERY audible...noone can save these ppl

try these players, tell me that they all sound identical to you, in your setup w/ your own ears...pretty simple test to conduct I think?

 

[Doman]

One set used off-the-roll, 14-gauge speaker cable from a hardware store. Another used a pair of Sigma Retro Gold cables from Monster, $2,000 for 16 feet of cable total and "as thick as your thumb." The writer couldn't tell the difference and figured no one else could either.

Surprise: People who visited the booth and listened to both sets of equipment (not in view) preferred the expensively cabled audio equipment 61 percent of the time.

Source Yahoo=http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/65929

the flipside: The WSJ found virtually identical preference for high-end CD audio (played from a $3,000 CD player) vs. a WAV file played from a standard iPod. The shocking lesson: Cables may actually matter more than the source of the music, at least while it's still in digital format.

Well I try to stay agnostic, I mean I like a high quality cable, just like a McDonalds Tasty Burger

 

[leeperry]

I was just comparing Reclock b58/foobar 1.0 on "Martin Solveig(ft. Lee Fields) - Jealousy.flac", both set in 100% bit-perfect 16/44.1 KS on XP SP3...it's not even funny how the difference is obvious

I only use 100% bit-perfect drivers(VIA Envy24 or GPL CMI8768 ), so what goes in goes out w/o any DSP whatsoever.

 

[Doman]

I was just comparing Reclock b58/foobar 1.0 on "Martin Solveig(ft. Lee Fields) - Jealousy.flac", both set in 100% bit-perfect 16/44.1 KS on XP SP3...it's not even funny how the difference is obvious

I only use 100% bit-perfect drivers(VIA Envy24 or GPL CMI8768 ), so what goes in goes out w/o any DSP whatsoever.

Let the non-believers crow. But keep up the vigilance Leeperry, even if it is not said, there are lots of people that believe in you.

People go to such lengths to debunk this stuff.
I can't say one way or the other, but if it sounds good to my ears then it seems a good investment.

Go for something that is certain for quality, gold connectors, oxygen free cables and a good review.

Rock on Leeperry

 

[leeperry]

hehe, well placebo is very real...compare both players, tell us your thoughts!

tbh I even compared ASIO/KS 16/24/32bit in foobar, and they were all equally sounding severely foobar'ed against Reclock...something's very wrong in their audio pipeline...I can find you zillions of testimonials like this one: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/2/21586.html

My 11 year old daughter was brought in blind [..] she quickly responded there was a difference and she thought and chose XX as the better player.

everyone needs a Xanax prescription maybe(even that 11yo girl sadly), it's entirely possible!

either this or the morogenic ppl are clueless, and care more about fancy GUI's than SQ...isn't that what W7 is all about? ppl want flashy/blinking GUI's nowadays, foobar does deliver in that department fo sho

the XXHighEnd coder is mostly making money on foobar's mediocrity.

 

[Doman]

I honestly believe there is a difference. :agree:

BUT Leeperry. The Dark Avenger. In-the-hope that one day people brain washed by nay-sayers and debunkers will listen, instead of acting like sheep. Hoorah.

 

[karoloydi]

hehe, well placebo is very real...compare both players, tell us your thoughts!

tbh I even compared ASIO/KS 16/24/32bit in foobar, and they were all equally sounding severely foobar'ed against Reclock...something's very wrong in their audio pipeline...I can find you zillions of testimonials like this one: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/2/21586.html

everyone needs a Xanax prescription maybe(even that 11yo girl sadly), it's entirely possible!

either this or the morogenic ppl are clueless, and care more about fancy GUI's than SQ...isn't that what W7 is all about? ppl want flashy/blinking GUI's nowadays, foobar does deliver in that department fo sho

the XXHighEnd coder is mostly making money on foobar's mediocrity.

Its a very well known fact that younger people can hear frequencies that older people can't. Your ears just get desensitised over the years of abuse.

 

[ashlar]

Source Yahoo=http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/65929


Well I try to stay agnostic, I mean I like a high quality cable, just like a McDonalds Tasty Burger

High quality cables, without going overboard, are more aesthetically pleasing. That *is* a plus, even for me.

But regarding the WSJ thing, it's a joke. Sorry. This is exactly why HA people insist on scientific method. To ask people what you prefer introduces, especially with these small numbers, a significant bias in the test.

First, when they switch they know that the sound *should* change.

Second, they are asked what sound they do prefer. The test is not conducted as to determine if they can tell there is a difference. They are forced to state that there is a difference. Psychologically you strive to "succeed".

Then... 39 people, 24 (61% sounds better, doesn't it) expressing a preference toward expensive cables. I'm almost positive that this is not even enough to constitute a statistically relevant sample.

Finally, suggesting to people that they should rip to WAV, instead of a lossless format, really shows that the guy has done close to zero research for his article.

Oh! And what bitrate were those MP3s encoded at? Nobody knows. Great journalism indeed.

Like it or not, our civilization progresses through science, not mumbo jumbo. Everybody has the right to suit his personal preference, but always take everything with a grain of salt. If logic dictates there should be no difference and serious tests do not indicate that there is... well, the difference is simply not there (again, leaving out instrumental testing, as we listen through our ears).

Which is not to say that foobar is perfect, for all I know it could really have developed some problems in the audio pipeline. Although... that it's pretty easy to test. Can it output DTS encodes encapsulated in FLAC files through digital out, having your receiver decode them? If it can... foobar is not touching the sound.

 

[leeperry]

it's pretty easy to test. Can it output DTS encodes encapsulated in FLAC files through digital out, having your receiver decode them? If it can... foobar is not touching the sound.

I think you're missing the point...on purpose, maybe?

all the different settings in XXHighEnd are bit-perfect and yes output different results....apparently you can supply a DAC "poorly", it will sound like **** and yet still be bit-perfect.

can you see the XXHighEnd measurements I posted above

anyway, you've decided to dismiss any possible difference and not even compare them(we call it "blind faith" where I come from)...so this is indeed a sterile discussion, you "know" that they sound identical...even though they very much don't :disagree:

jitter in the windows kernel would appear to be very much real: cMP² | CPlay / SoftwareInducedJitter

Its a very well known fact that younger people can hear frequencies that older people can't. Your ears just get desensitised over the years of abuse.

bit-perfect should sound the same in every player, it just does not...that's what the XXHighEnd empire is based upon.

 

[ashlar]

I think you're missing the point...on purpose, maybe?

all the different settings in XXHighEnd are bit-perfect and yes output different results....apparently you can supply a DAC "poorly", it will sound like **** and yet still be bit-perfect.

can you see the XXHighEnd measurements I posted above

I saw them and I replied specifically to that. The fact there are differences at the instrumental level does not warrant the ability to tell those differences by ear. The author itself jokes on this "Let's assume we can hear this. Hahaha"

There would have to be a *seriously* messed up audio chain when outputting bit perfect material to the same DAC for one person to be able to tell the difference in an ABX test.

anyway, you've decided to dismiss any possible difference and not even compare them(we call it "blind faith" where I come from)...so this is indeed a sterile discussion, you "know" that they sound identical...even though they very much don't :disagree:

What's the magical equipment I would need to conduct this test? Would you be willing to organize an independently managed ABX test for your findings? I'm sure there are French users on HA that would be happy to help you.

bit-perfect should sound the same in every player, it just does not...that's what the XXHighEnd empire is based upon.

Yeah, sure.

Like this:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/xxhighend-player-vista-xp-better-than-foobar-246554/#post3091928

Or this: http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=5.0 where the author of the program claims that by unexplicable means his player is capable of rendering room acoustical characteristics irrelevant.

Or here: http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=692.0;all where he's the only one conducting these tests, fiddling with Q settings he never explains what are going to influence.

And by the way, in that Head-Fi thread I see a certain Leeperry making good fun of this xxhighend player. You changed your mind? Good for you.

I don't trust and I suggest nobody else trusts a "scientific breakthrough" that refuses examination by peers. So... "secret Q settings" my balls, really.

Enjoy them if you like. I never took part into this discussion to have you change your mind. I came to this discussion because when I read snakeoil at its finest I always feel compelled to defend potentially unaware readers, that's all.

Then again, I have a dedicate Meier headamp and a pair of Beyerdynamics DT770. Are they good enough to test this? Let's hear this magic revolution.

Edit: on second thought, no thanks. Without disclosure of what these Q settings are supposed to be doing, placebo risks are too high. I don't care, have better ways of spending my time. Like listening to music in an Audyssey MultiEQ XT corrected room. Gasp!!! The horror!
Cheers and enjoy your player.

 

[leeperry]

yup, I was skeptic as hell about XXHighEnd when I tried it ages ago, I thought it was doing a hell lot of DSP...but it doesn't seem to, it's just that foobar sounds like @#@!

you keep talking about the morogenic ppl, why so? who cares about these narrow minded ppl and their crappy sounding player?

I guess it's indeed rocket science to play a bunch of FLAC in Reclock and foobar in 100% bit-perfect, and compare them w/ your own ears on your gear...sorry for overestimating your skills!

BTW, yes if you run a DT770/Pro on a Corda Arrieta, indeed the difference might not be audible at all...I've owned both, and they were both sounding very bad...so you might indeed have a strong point here

 

[ashlar]

Sorry, my bad. It's a DT-880, not the DT-770. And the amp is a different model but it's in the office and I don't remember its exact name. Edit: it's a Corda HA-1 Mk 2.

 

[coconut]

hehe, no worries

well, the KMP/Reclock has several drawbacks:

-KMP is sloooooooow to open, I did some benchmarks here: http://www.kmplayer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11629

when I click on an audio file, I want it to open right away...so I've put all my HTPC files on a ramdisk, and use MPC/ffdshow/Reclock...KMP is too darn slow to me, it's great for videos, though..its slow opening time is well worth the fantastic video experience(seamless playback on AVI/WMV/MKV/MPG/M2TS for instance).

-Reclock doesn't allow gapless by design, which is annoying on gapless albums

but well, SQ is far better than foobar...I'll take improved SQ over gapless anytime :agree:

your RME most likely has bit-perfect MME drivers, so WaveOut is as good as KS/WASAPI anyhow.

Hi, can you explain how to get ReClock to work with Foobar??? I have been trying with no success at all. I can not even get it to load with Foobar and KS is not even a choice.

Only KMPlayer works with ReClock

 

[coconut]

hehe, no worries

well, the KMP/Reclock has several drawbacks:


but well, SQ is far better than foobar...I'll take improved SQ over gapless anytime :agree:

your RME most likely has bit-perfect MME drivers, so WaveOut is as good as KS/WASAPI anyhow.

Can I ask what the rest of your system consists of....??? DAC, Amp, Speakers

Can you describe the sonic differences between Foobar/KS and KMPlayer/ReClock...??? Sound stage, highs, lows, vocals, etc.

What types of music...??? Wav, Flac, Upsampled or Not....

 

[leeperry]

What types of music...??? Wav, Flac, Upsampled or Not....

FLAC, bit-perfect, vocal jazz for tests...otherwise deep funk or roots reggae essentially.

MDR-CD3000 headphones

many different kinds of soundcards/DAC, such the Prodigy HD2 Advance Deluxe fit w/ high end opamps such as the discrete Burson's etc etc

the only drawback of Reclock based music solutions is that gapless isn't possible..and gappy audio make me no happy :doh:

why don't you compare foobar/Reclock/uLilith...and tell us your thoughts?

you can get uLilith here(it supports ASIO/WASAPI): http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6421688-post138.html

 

[coconut]

you can get uLilith here(it supports ASIO/WASAPI): http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6421688-post138.html

uLilith, How can I install this player?

Was it made by someone Japanese?

あなたは日本じんですか？

 

[leeperry]

uLilith, How can I install this player?

decompress the latest "Core2" archive and overwrite w/ the english resource file I've provided.

well, yeah...my favorite movie player is Korean(KMPlayer) and now my fav. audio player is Japanese...uLilith w/ASIO4ALL sounds very different from foobar and Reclock.

I'd say that foobar sounds mushy and not clear at all(in bitperfect KS/ASIO), Reclock is the clearest of the three(you might either like or hate how "sharp" the sound is), and uLilith sounds like Reclock...but less "sharp", more musical IMHO.

but Reclock's clarity is fantastic for movies! thing is, music is usually recorded through crappy opamps(NJM5532/5534 and so), so digging for too much detail in digital music can make it very harsh sounding.

also my tests were conducted on XP SP3....the W7 audio engine went through massive changes, either in good or bad.

 

[coconut]

decompress the latest "Core2" archive and overwrite w/ the english resource file I've provided.

well, yeah...my favorite movie player is Korean(KMPlayer) and now my fav. audio player is Japanese...uLilith w/ASIO4ALL sounds very different from foobar and Reclock.

I'd say that foobar sounds mushy and not clear at all(in bitperfect KS/ASIO), Reclock is the clearest of the three(you might either like or hate how "sharp" the sound is), and uLilith sounds like Reclock...but less "sharp", more musical IMHO.

but Reclock's clarity is fantastic for movies! thing is, music is usually recorded through crappy opamps(NJM5532/5534 and so), so digging for too much detail in digital music can make it very harsh sounding.

also my tests were conducted on XP SP3....the W7 audio engine went through massive changes, either in good or bad.

Ok, thanks I will give it a shot.

I take it you are not Japanese since you did not respond to my question.

I dont have an XP machine only, W7, Vista, Mac, and a couple of Linux machines. I will try it on my Vista machine with WASAPI, I don't like ASIO and esp. ASIO4ALL [which is actually kernel streaming in an ASIO wrapper].

Thanks a bunch.

Update:

Very VERY interesting Player.....I'm going to have to do some serious listening on my main system.