question about AS download behavior

[sierra117]

noticed this before but want to get more detail info so i understand better how AS works:

when download speed is set to 1x (as well as other download speeds), the first 10-15% of the progress bar fills quickly, within seconds from starting a download ....

if the speed is 1x (realtime), why does this happen ?

behind the scenes, does a provider notice variations in download rate that indicate content is being consumed faster than a normal viewing rate ?

 

[DeepSpace]

if the speed is 1x (realtime), why does this happen ?

I have no answer for that, I can only guess that AS is not downloading something in this part but do other stuff like connecting, free disc space check and so on.

does a provider notice variations in download rate that indicate content is being consumed faster than a normal viewing rate ?

Well on Amz there you have a progress bar for every video so you can resume it and for me, also as some others already wrote in the past this bar is not complete when you use unlimited (and maybe other speeds too), since the download only needs 10 min for example and if the episode is 40 min then the bar is only 1/4 filled up. On NF I can't even see the things I got using AS in my history, this may be because they wrote a custom layout for NF and D+, but only a guess. For D+ itself I cannot say, never used it yet.

 

[cartman0208]

if the speed is 1x (realtime), why does this happen ?

I would guess that is the usual buffering every streaming client uses (or should use)
Just open youtube and play something, you can see it yourself:

Red is the play position, white is the buffered area, which is quickly filled at the start and should always be ahead of the red marker.
If the red catches up with the white, the buffer is empty (can happen with a slow connection) and the video stutters or stops.

I hope it doesn't count as technical discussion when I guess that AnyStream does similar and is showing the already downloaded data, which includes the buffer

 

[DQ]

I would guess that is the usual buffering every streaming client uses (or should use)

I am not sure either to be honest but I doubt that's the case. I think it's a bit more complex than that.

But of course it is frowned upon for us to chat about the inner workings of AS so I will not speculate any further.

 

[RedFox 1]

noticed this before but want to get more detail info so i understand better how AS works:

when download speed is set to 1x (as well as other download speeds), the first 10-15% of the progress bar fills quickly, within seconds from starting a download ....

It's just a progress bar , sometimes it doesn't react to the exact amount of MBs downloaded and sometimes it has to catch up when it detects the progress is at a certain amount of MBs downloaded, it's not an exact science. When the file is done downloading, you will know what happens, ( in between is not exact.)

 

[DeepSpace]

sometimes it has to catch up when it detects the progress is at a certain amount of MBs downloaded, it's not an exact science.

Offtopic, but not offtopic: The same is for Windows Update. Sometimes it hangs at a certain number (like 15%) for some minutes, but then it jumps directly to 18-20-24% within seconds. This makes absolutly no sense.
In addition I noticed that the cumulative update goes to 100%, only to start new at 0% to 100% again. The last round takes longer each time, so it is not a bug, but it makes no sense too since installing can't be 100% if it starts again at 0%. In this case the 100% are actually 20% or something.

Offtopic, since WU and not AS, but at the same time not offtopic because of progress (bar). Schrödingers Computer?

 

[RedFox 1]

Offtopic, but not offtopic: The same is for Windows Update. Sometimes it hangs at a certain number (like 15%) for some minutes, but then it jumps directly to 18-20-24% within seconds. This makes absolutly no sense.
In addition I noticed that the cumulative update goes to 100%, only to start new at 0% to 100% again. The last round takes longer each time, so it is not a bug, but it makes no sense too since installing can't be 100% if it starts again at 0%. In this case the 100% are actually 20% or something.

Offtopic, since WU and not AS, but at the same time not offtopic because of progress (bar). Schrödingers Computer?

yes, it seems like the same thing as Windows Update when it jumps from 20% to 60% in one second and then continues to jump until it's at 100%. The only thing that's important here is that it gets to 100%. And its an example therefore its not off topic.

 

[Ch3vr0n]

it doesn't make sense if you don't know the inner mechanics of an update. I can only imagine it needs to do multiple things at ones to hit a certain update "milestone" and then jumps to a certain percentage complete. It's never a rolling progress number. Always has been that way

 

[RedFox 1]

Yes, if one thing in the update is 20% of the update when that completes it will go up 20%. At least that's the way I have always understood it.

 

[sierra117]

thanks all for these suggestions, many brought up valid arguments ...
makes some sense that the progress bar is not directly linear or correlated with the 'viewer's perspective' with respect to consuming content .... i am confident tho that on the back-end AS is metering itself so that it follows the settings requested as well as good practices for streaming content the right way.

yes, in general i haven't seen any consistency with progress bar rates, not just with AS but in Windows, mac OS and Linux sometimes. the OS's themselves are not good enough to predict a smooth progress of a job and sometimes i guess the instructions and time taken to execute can slow or advance arbitrarily.

was just trying to relate that, so i can sort of estimate how much walk-away time i have when a download is on the main burner.

 

[DeepSpace]

if one thing in the update is 20% of the update when that completes it will go up 20%

I already thought that too and this is correct then but still there is no reason for me why only jump to 20% when this part is done. Why does it not show the things between 0-20%? This way it seems to do nothing but actually it is at 5%. Then why not show that?

 

[RedFox 1]

I already thought that too and this is correct then but still there is no reason for me why only jump to 20% when this part is done. Why does it not show the things between 0-20%? This way it seems to do nothing but actually it is at 5%. Then why not show that?

If the file that's loading is only 20% of the complete download, it will only jump 20%. It's actually 1 file that is 20% of the complete download or upload, when it finishes it shows that it is 20% completed. What difference does it make anyway, when the file is done it's done, this is almost like nitpicking.

 

[DeepSpace]

If the file that's loading is only 20% of the complete download, it will only jump 20%. It's actually 1 file that is 20% of the complete download or upload, when it finishes it shows that it is 20% completed. What difference does it make anyway, when the file is done it's done, this is almost like nitpicking.

This was about WU, not AS.

 

[RedFox 1]

This was about WU, not AS.

The same thing , when it's done its done, there are numerous files in a Windows Update as there are in any large file, the progress bar is only to give you an estimate of the finishing time, none of them are exact to the 1/10th of a second acturate.

 

[zero269]

noticed this before but want to get more detail info so i understand better how AS works:

when download speed is set to 1x (as well as other download speeds), the first 10-15% of the progress bar fills quickly, within seconds from starting a download ....

if the speed is 1x (realtime), why does this happen ?

behind the scenes, does a provider notice variations in download rate that indicate content is being consumed faster than a normal viewing rate ?

It's because your video streams buffer - which means it downloads faster than playback to prevent playback performance issues.

Sometimes it buffers quickly and sometimes slowly. It's hardly ever consistent, and you never really notice the buffering unless it's painfully slow effecting your playback.

I discuss this briefly here: Download Settings. Check out specifically Download Speeds and My Thoughts.

 

[RedFox 1]

It's because your video streams buffer - which means it downloads faster than playback to prevent playback performance issues.

Sometimes it buffers quickly and sometimes slowly. It's hardly ever consistent, and you never really notice the buffering unless it's painfully slow effecting your playback.

I discuss this briefly here: Download Settings. Check out specifically Download Speeds and My Thoughts.

Good call zero269, usually you can see a buffer when streaming online, but when downloading you really dont know, its absolutely something to think about, personally, its never happened to me, yes some downloads are faster and some aree slower but I don't think I have ever had it so bad as to make the download buffer.

 

[zero269]

I don't think I have ever had it so bad as to make the download buffer.

Hi @RedFox 1,

I'm not sure about any download buffering myself. My intuition tells me that AS is collecting the stream, which likely includes the buffer since it's - technically - part of the stream. It's this buffer that enables us to choose a Download Speed in settings (my suspicion).

I think if @sierra117 selects Show messages, he can monitor the activity to see if anything looks unusual. I personally don't pay attention anymore because I don't expect each DL to behave in the same fashion. Some are slow, and some are fast. If it's taking longer than usual, then perhaps that might grab my attention. I have had to Abort on a few occasions, but not very often.

However, I doubt the Developers would even answer this question in greater detail.. although I could be wrong about that.

 

[sierra117]

didn't mean to see this turn into a counting grains discussion over progress bar indicators ... ha ... sorry.

my normal notion, set it and forget it for a while. when i come back if it's still not done, walk away again ...

the only thing that slower than expected download progress does is slightly wrinkle my backup routines. since i started using W10 inside of VMWare, i include the virtual machine file in my daily backups when VMWare is not running.

 

[RedFox 1]

Hi @RedFox 1,

I'm not sure about any download buffering myself. My intuition tells me that AS is collecting the stream, which likely includes the buffer since it's - technically - part of the stream. It's this buffer that enables us to choose a Download Speed in settings (my suspicion).

I think if @sierra117 selects Show messages, he can monitor the activity to see if anything looks unusual. I personally don't pay attention anymore because I don't expect each DL to behave in the same fashion. Some are slow, and some are fast. If it's taking longer than usual, then perhaps that might grab my attention. I have had to Abort on a few occasions, but not very often.

However, I doubt the Developers would even answer this question in greater detail.. although I could be wrong about that.

You are probably right I just remember in the old days I used to get some buffering on my old laptop when trying to watch a stream, I have a pretty powerful desktop that I usually download everything on and I don’t get any buffering, so I’m not quite sure what Sierra‘s problem is. Thank you for your input. This is another thing that’s fine but I doubt whether the developer is it going to take time to make any better I think it’s fine right now. The download indicators on every program are usually not very exact

 

[zero269]

didn't mean to see this turn into a counting grains discussion over progress bar indicators ... ha ... sorry.

No worries, it's all good information that others will benefit from as well. I only chimed in to help...

my normal notion, set it and forget it for a while. when i come back if it's still not done, walk away again ...

I'm in the same mindset, although if a DL is taking longer than usual, it'll grab my attention. The only time I see DLs longer than 15-20 minutes is over VPN, which I've grown accustomed to. Even some taking over an hour, like India, or the Netherlands. I'm US.

the only thing that slower than expected download progress does is slightly wrinkle my backup routines. since i started using W10 inside of VMWare, i include the virtual machine file in my daily backups when VMWare is not running.

I use VMware Workstation all the time. I would suggest using a linked VM that you customize for a specific need. This way you need only backup the SOURCE image and not the linked cone... assuming it's not a complex setup.

The main benefit is that they are much smaller than a FULL clone and you can spin one up in just a few seconds when you want to create a new custom environment.

Try this:

1. Create a fresh VM with the latest W10. You do not want to or need to activate it.
2. Install VMware Tools, all Windows Updates, and then sysprep it (OOBE mode, Generalize unchecked, Shutdown). Do not generalize it. CTRL+SHIFT+F3 to boot into Audit Mode at User Account setup screen.
3. Once it's shut down, create a LINKED clone. YT Video.
4. Fire up the LINKED clone and create a snapshot; Name: post-LinkedClone; add comments in Description if needed.
5. Customize your system as needed; create another snapshot; Name: post-customization. Add notes in the Description if needed.

​

Now, when you back up your SOURCE image, you only back it up once.
However, each time you create a LINKED clone from that SOURCE VM, you'll see a new locked snapshot in the SOURCE VM. You can back up the SOURCE VM again for times like this.

​

Your LINKED clone is the only thing that will change over usage. This one will be much smaller, making the backup process faster.
I have a LINKED clone that I use just for random experiments. I only fire it up when needed. When I'm done, I'll revert to my snapshot prior to my experiments. You still want to fire them up from time to time to keep them updated. Create a new snapshot afterwards, and delete the pervious one.

Linked Clones are amazing!

NOTE: You must not delete or move the SOURCE VM. If you do, the LINKED clone will not fire up until you fix the broken link to the SOURCE. Learn how to do that now, before you are in a situation where time is critical for you.

To keep the SOURCE VM updated, fire it up once every two months and run the updates, and then sysprep it the same way as before; not generalized. You can do this indefinitely as long as you do not generalize it. If you generalize an image, it can only be done three times.

If you know how to use an Answer File, you can have it automate the OOBE setup for the LINKED clone to make the initial setup faster. You can use VMware's command line tool vm run to copy the Answer File to the Windows LINKED VM folder structure so its there before you fire it up.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Answer file needs to copied to here: C:\Windows\System32\Sysprep