I edited in the meantime, so allow me to repeat myself: DVD's works fine if you open the first VOB, and PotPlayer will open them seamlessly like KMP. Also, CoreAVC CUDA does hardware h264 decoding...allowing you to post-process it, which isn't possible w/ DXVA.
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- Thread starter jeffboy
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As for who's job it is to control vsync - I'd say ideally Reclock should control the "rough" framerate and then the player should do the fine-tuning that should fix both tearing and judder. Players and renderers do a bad job of this so Reclock to the rescue by constantly adjusting playspeed to match the hardware. Trouble then is to get the player/renderer to surrender the control to Reclock 
There must be some wisdom to learn from standalone DVD/bluray players, I believe they just have to output a constant frame delivery, but not necessarily spot on the refresh rate, the TV would compensate for small inaccuracies. Meaning in effect, that the same TV would show the same movie from 2 different standalone players with no judder at all - but one might be some seconds longer than the other.
Of course with a standalone player there is just one thing to match :
Standalone player -> TV
The TV actually does the "Reclocking" in this scenario!
With HTPC we have
Decoder -> player -> renderer -> possibly Aero -> graphics hw -> TV
I find it amazing that people get into airplanes and fly over countries and oceans, but it's 2010 and we can't play a video smoothly.
There must be some wisdom to learn from standalone DVD/bluray players, I believe they just have to output a constant frame delivery, but not necessarily spot on the refresh rate, the TV would compensate for small inaccuracies. Meaning in effect, that the same TV would show the same movie from 2 different standalone players with no judder at all - but one might be some seconds longer than the other.
Of course with a standalone player there is just one thing to match :
Standalone player -> TV
The TV actually does the "Reclocking" in this scenario!
With HTPC we have
Decoder -> player -> renderer -> possibly Aero -> graphics hw -> TV
I find it amazing that people get into airplanes and fly over countries and oceans, but it's 2010 and we can't play a video smoothly.
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I did get that. And I fully accept it works for you and Mark and maybe many others.
But loading a vob is not the same experience as loading a disc with menu, maybe selecting scenes, extras etc. Also, I haven't used PotPlayer, but don't know if it will work if you shove in one of your old discs and use "Autoplay" (maybe it does?)
I'm not calling you crazy at all for doing what you are doing (well maybe for some of your esoteric audio shenanigans, but that's a different story
), I just don't think MadVR should be the answer when someone asks for the perfect renderer, yet. If it is recommended the limitations should be spelt out.
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You are right PCs are at their very core very badly engineered for high quality video - too many unsychronised clocks - but I am not sure modern TVs really work the way you describe when using a digital interface. ar-jar looked into this for his "sync display to video" option.As for who's job it is to control vsync - I'd say ideally Reclock should control the "rough" framerate and then the player should do the fine-tuning that should fix both tearing and judder. Players and renderers do a bad job of this so Reclock to the rescue by constantly adjusting playspeed to match the hardware. Trouble then is to get the player/renderer to surrender the control to Reclock
There must be some wisdom to learn from standalone DVD/bluray players, I believe they just have to output a constant frame delivery, but not necessarily spot on the refresh rate, the TV would compensate for small inaccuracies. Meaning in effect, that the same TV would show the same movie from 2 different standalone players with no judder at all - but one might be some seconds longer than the other.
Of course with a standalone player there is just one thing to match :
Standalone player -> TV
The TV actually does the "Reclocking" in this scenario!
With HTPC we have
Decoder -> player -> renderer -> possibly Aero -> graphics hw -> TV
I find it amazing that people get into airplanes and fly over countries and oceans, but it's 2010 and we can't play a video smoothly.
Sadly, like so many modern digital "gadgets" quality if being sacrificed for features and "gee-whiz" factor. I'm pretty sure modern TVs, via the EDID, mandate timings and rely on accurate modern clocks. If the timings are not quite adhered to the TV will drop/repeat frames to keep things in sync, instead of synchronising to the source clock as used to happen in good-ol' analogue days. Certainly that is what happens with my TV if I manually set my refresh rate slightly away from EDID timings (using pstrip).
well, they use a single clock reference for A/V, computers don't.
I've always hated DVD menus anyway, it's just easier to open the first VOB to me.
Ah! I've finetuned my audio gear and nothing I'm currently hearing is esoteric...different strokes for different folks I guess
my current set up regenerates the USB and S/PDIF clocks, and man does it sound good!
Simple PCM audio over HDMI into my, now old but good, Denon 4306 for me.
good point! I dunno how jitter is affected over HDMI, but only the ATi can transport multi-channel PCM I think? but then no CoreAVC CUDA, meaning no HA in madVR...getting a HTPC to work is such a major PITA haha.Simple PCM audio over HDMI into my, now old but good, Denon 4306 for me.
My question was can you insert a disc, configure autoplay to launch Potplayer and have Potplayer automatically play the main movie VTS chain?
Yes this is probably true, so it's no longer reclocking, now it's "present at nearest vsync"ing
After even more watching (my eyes are now rolling judderfreely from left to right uncounsciously even when not watching TV
) Overlay with reclock sync is still flawless...can't tell, never tried..but prolly not. you can always click on the proper .IFO and yes PotP/KMP will open the relevant VOB files seamlessly.
I couldn't find time to download Zoom Player, I spend most of my time to try to tune the MPC-HC.
I really started to think that I finally got the perfect settings. I watched two movie titles without a single judder but then, the third title was full of judders and was hardly vieable.....
I thought it might be something to do with the player, so I tried to download the latest svn build of MPC-HC but it didn't help.
I'm starting the studying the movies data flow from the moment they are being read from the disk until they are being shown on screen. I think that knowing all the middle components might shine a light on where the judders problem might be.
There is another option, that the ReClock app is not precise enough. I tried to turn off all vsync options. Now, the ReClock app is meant to resync the audio (and video) so its frequency will match the graphic card frequency.
Looking on the Display Stat (the osd with the red/green graphs), I expected to see two parallel lines.
Since there is no vsync enabled, the distance between the line may affect the tearing. But for my surprise, it looks like the lines are not exactly parellel. The red lines stays flat on the middle while the green line is slowly moving down toward the green line.
If my understanding is correct, that means that the ReClock is not 100% resynchronizing (resampling) the video to the screen frequency.
Is it correct?
I will send a full set of pictures of everything that might be important once I'll be home.
OK, I just tried! seamless playback on VOB doesn't work because the files are not seamless per se(GOP yada yada) so glitches occur on transitions, but opening the .IFO file works perfectly: http://www.imagebam.com/image/f5f9e589218522
Opening the DVD "as is" doesn't work either, but I don't have any legit DVD playback software installed..that might explain. It also craps out in MPC I think.
Just realised that VMR9 Renderless will allow Reclock vsync to work it's magic if Aero is on. This is not the case for EVR (regular).
Right now this seems the best option for judder-free non-exclusive mode playback. Jong you seem to have the threads sorted out regarding when Reclock vsync works and when it doesn't, what do you think of this particular combo (Aero - VMR9 renderless - Reclock vsync) ? Better than Overlay Mixer ? Both Overlay and VMR9 required more fiddling with color levels, stuff that seems more automatic with EVR...
Right now this seems the best option for judder-free non-exclusive mode playback. Jong you seem to have the threads sorted out regarding when Reclock vsync works and when it doesn't, what do you think of this particular combo (Aero - VMR9 renderless - Reclock vsync) ? Better than Overlay Mixer ? Both Overlay and VMR9 required more fiddling with color levels, stuff that seems more automatic with EVR...
EVR CP or EVR Sync renderers work too if their vsync options are turned off. Personally I use EVR Sync with Reclock. But, yes, VMR9 shoudl work. Personally I always used VMR9 on XP and use EVR Sync now on W7. I would not use "old style" overlay mixer myself. NB: this is different to using an overlay surface with EVR as PDVD/TMT do for Blu-ray (TMT for DVD too).
I prefer to use D3D exclusive-mode rather than Aero. I have not done extensive testing with Aero. It will be less bullet-proof than exclusive mode, but i realise the restrictions of exclusive mode are not to everyone's taste.
I prefer to use D3D exclusive-mode rather than Aero. I have not done extensive testing with Aero. It will be less bullet-proof than exclusive mode, but i realise the restrictions of exclusive mode are not to everyone's taste.
Yeah but only in MPC-HC... Looking for the best solution with Zoomplayer which has no custom EVR.
In fact Inmatrix told me that they do no vsync'ing in EVR besides what Windows does default. This made me take yet another look at MPC-HC, I found that EVR Sync with all vsync off and using Reclock's vsync is OK-ish, not 100% but decent (with aero, non-exclusive). However as soon as i do CTRL+J to get the stats, it goes nuts, skipping like crazy and both red/green line all over the place. Don't know if it's the last effort of drawing the stats that pushes the machine over it's edge but it makes it totally useless.
Also tried Potplayer, it's EVR CP does not allow Reclock vsync to work either...
In fact Inmatrix told me that they do no vsync'ing in EVR besides what Windows does default. This made me take yet another look at MPC-HC, I found that EVR Sync with all vsync off and using Reclock's vsync is OK-ish, not 100% but decent (with aero, non-exclusive). However as soon as i do CTRL+J to get the stats, it goes nuts, skipping like crazy and both red/green line all over the place. Don't know if it's the last effort of drawing the stats that pushes the machine over it's edge but it makes it totally useless.
Also tried Potplayer, it's EVR CP does not allow Reclock vsync to work either...
Guys, using MPC-HC, EVR CP with vsync and accurate vsync, I’m seeing the green line slowly descend into the red line and clash every 41 secs or so causing a slight glitch during playback. Refresh rate is set @ 24Hz. After trying every other possible rendering combination the only way to get rid of the glitch and prevent the lines from crossing is to use EVR sync (sync video to display), but this results in the audio loosing sync after a short while?
After browsing this forum I’ve been looking at zoom player but it doesn’t look like it supports HD audio?
Any thoughts?
After browsing this forum I’ve been looking at zoom player but it doesn’t look like it supports HD audio?
Any thoughts?
Your screen isn't set to exactly 23.976Hz. You can try get it perfect, or use ReClock to speed up/slow down the video (frame rate set to auto and audio not set to slave).