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Any hope for HD DVD

Adbear said:
But thats not your decision, I work for a company that builds video editing systems and supplies to the home user through to TV companies and a lot of our small film makers want to put their stuff out on HD discs because the quality is better, and anyone who has a decent screen, (1080p and above 42") can see the difference between upscaled and original HD. I'm talking about actual companies who are trying to make a living. And why should they have to pay extra for something they are forced into having when they don't want it. Your argument just comes across as saying 'tough'. Well it's a shame you have such a narrow viewpoint and are quite happy that Sony are forcing small filmmakers out of the HD market with this ridiculous license fee that is not necessary.
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Well stated.

I see it as extorting smaller people/companies/studios that wish to join the high definition world and will ultimately prevent many from doing so.

Sorry, little fellow, you are too little to sit at the grown-ups table (BD). You'll have to sit at the children's table (SD DVD).
 
Adbear said:
But thats not your decision, I work for a company that builds video editing systems and supplies to the home user through to TV companies and a lot of our small film makers want to put their stuff out on HD discs because the quality is better, and anyone who has a decent screen, (1080p and above 42") can see the difference between upscaled and original HD. I'm talking about actual companies who are trying to make a living. And why should they have to pay extra for something they are forced into having when they don't want it. Your argument just comes across as saying 'tough'. Well it's a shame you have such a narrow viewpoint and are quite happy that Sony are forcing small filmmakers out of the HD market with this ridiculous license fee that is not necessary.
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I don't go to a restaurant and expect to eat for free. I pay for the food and I come out feeling full and no longer hungry. This is a game for the big boys. They can continue to support HD DVD but if they do so they have to face the fact that their target audience would not be as substantial.

You have to pay money to make money. It may sounds like me saying "tough" and it is. Like I was told by a wiser than me person ages ago, bitter truth is better than a sweet lie.
 
DrinkLyeAndDie said:
Well stated.

I see it as extorting smaller people/companies/studios that wish to join the high definition world and will ultimately prevent many from doing so.

Sorry, little fellow, you are too little to sit at the grown-ups table (BD). You'll have to sit at the children's table (SD DVD).
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Why not keep supporting HD DVD? They DON'T HAVE to go BluRay and if they do they need to accept the requirements.

If my PC isn't powerful enough to play a game I don't run to the company who developed it screaming for them to lower the requirements.
 
ivanX said:
Why not keep supporting HD DVD? They DON'T HAVE to go BluRay and if they do they need to accept the requirements.

If my PC isn't powerful enough to play a game I don't run to the company who developed it screaming for them to lower the requirements.
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If the industry decides to not support HD-DVD and players & burners aren't available then what good would it do to a smaller company/studio to release anything on HD-DVD? They'll get pushed to the side.

I believe there is room for both formats. I back HD-DVD but I don't think BD has to die and if BD wins that doesn't mean HD-DVD has to die. What I hope to see is neutrality. Let studios release movies on both formats. If they do then we have a chance. If at least one big studio doesn't continue to release HD-DVD discs then I don't see HD-DVD really being very widespread in use or surviving.
 
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ivanX said:
I don't go to a restaurant and expect to eat for free. I pay for the food and I come out feeling full and no longer hungry. This is a game for the big boys. They can continue to support HD DVD but if they do so they have to face the fact that their target audience would not be as substantial.

You have to pay money to make money. It may sounds like me saying "tough" and it is. Like I was told by a wiser than me person ages ago, bitter truth is better than a sweet lie.
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Your analogy is spurious at best, it has nothing to do with the way this works. If anything it would be more like going to a restaurant and being charged for a meal whether you had one or not.
They are being forced into having encryption whether they want it or not. They are quite prepared to pay for disc production costs but when you consider that on a small run of around 1000 discs you're paying more for the encryption than for the production cost of the disc itself. It seems that all you seem to care about is the big movie companies. Where do you think directors and producers as well as actors start off, in small low budget films. If they can't afford to get their films out there then they'll never be able to get into the big league.

Oh and it would be nice if in future your analogies were actual relevant to what we're talking about
 
DrinkLyeAndDie said:
If the industry decides to not support HD-DVD and players & burners aren't available then what good would it do to a smaller company/studio to release anything on HD-DVD? They'll get pushed to the side.

I believe there is room for both formats. I back HD-DVD but I don't think BD has to die and if BD wins that doesn't mean HD-DVD has to die. What I hope to see is neutrality. Let studios release movies on both formats. If they do then we have a chance. If at least one big studio doesn't continue to release HD-DVD discs then I don't see really being very widespread in use.
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I don't think HD DVD will be completely abandoned, Toshiba can't afford that. It will simply be less supported.

Neutrality is good for the minority but not for the majority. Neutrality won't lead as drastic price changes compared to if everything is on one format. And as a guy who doesn't like to pay extra unless it's unavoidable I firmly believe in that vision.
 
Adbear said:
Your analogy is spurious at best, it has nothing to do with the way this works. If anything it would be more like going to a restaurant and being charged for a meal whether you had one or not.
They are being forced into having encryption whether they want it or not. They are quite prepared to pay for disc production costs but when you consider that on a small run of around 1000 discs you're paying more for the encryption than for the production cost of the disc itself. It seems that all you seem to care about is the big movie companies. Where do you think directors and producers as well as actors start off, in small low budget films. If they can't afford to get their films out there then they'll never be able to get into the big league.

Oh and it would be nice if in future your analogies were actual relevant to what we're talking about
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What do you go in a restaurant for? Chat to the waiter? I don't think so...

Nobody is asking them if they want the encryption or not. It's not their choice to make. As a minority, they have no right to boss around. If they want to distribute 1000 copies of a movie in high-def then why not do it over IP? No need for encryption or disc production.

Small companies want to be on the same level as huge Hollywood studios and that will never happen. No wonder they are called small companies.
 
Anyone remember Y Betamax lost to VHS

Im old enough to remember why and find it strange that studios have too.

Betamax had a license and VHS was FREEEEEEEEEEE.....

Betamax was better than VHS but this time HDDVD is better than BD.

aint the world funny.
 
Datus said:
Im old enough to remember why and find it strange that studios have too.

Betamax had a license and VHS was FREEEEEEEEEEE.....

Betamax was better than VHS but this time HDDVD is better than BD.

aint the world funny.
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Whether HD DVD is better that BD is a matter of opinion and will fuel debates just like this one long after both formats will become extinct and the new "best thing since sliced bread" invention will replace them.

Presence and cost of encryption isn't the only factor and focusing on it as the single one that's leading to HD DVD's demise is quite desperate to be honest.
 
I never focused on that one thing, I was stating a reason why it was better for small businesses. And you were the one who started with analogies on restaurants and I was using the same kind of analogy as to the real situation for small businesses so don't then start leading it off in a different direction by saying 'What do you go in a restaurant for? Chat to the waiter? I don't think so...' . If anything it shows your lack of understanding by trying to take the comment out of context. I was reporting the actual facts about forced encryption costs on Blu-ray and why it would be better for small businesses to use HD DVD. It seems that you are so stuck on Blu-ray that no amount of facts will change your view so it's not really worth debating it with you. I just find it sad when people get so stuck on something without ever learning the real facts and how it effects other companies. There are thousands of small film companies out there who want to be able to go over to producing HD discs, but can't afford to because of this enforced license for which there is absolutely no need for other than another way for Sony to make more money
Also why should they try and distribute it over the internet. Most people still want a physical medium and don't want to have the film tied to playing from their PC and they also don't want to have to spend days downloading a 30GB film that they are then stuck with only playing on the PC
 
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Adbear said:
I never focused on that one thing, I was stating a reason why it was better for small businesses. And you were the one who started with analogies on restaurants and I was using the same kind of analogy as to the real situation for small businesses so don't then start leading it off in a different direction by saying 'What do you go in a restaurant for? Chat to the waiter? I don't think so...' . If anything it shows your lack of understanding by trying to take the comment out of context. I was reporting the actual facts about forced encryption costs on Blu-ray and why it would be better for small businesses to use HD DVD. It seems that you are so stuck on Blu-ray that no amount of facts will change your view so it's not really worth debating it with you. I just find it sad when people get so stuck on something without ever learning the real facts and how it effects other companies. There are thousands of small film companies out there who want to be able to go over to producing HD discs, but can't afford to because of this enforced license for which there is absolutely no need for other than another way for Sony to make more money
Also why should they try and distribute it over the internet. Most people still want a physical medium and don't want to have the film tied to playing from their PC
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I may not be in possession of HD hardware yet but I consider myself quite knowledgeable on the matter. As I said, they can carry on producing HD DVDs but will have a smaller audience. Do you think that those small film companies are there to entertain us? To make our Friday at the end of the week better by releasing a movie or make the start of the week more bearable by publishing a disc? No, they are in it to make money, no one can deny that. Anyone thinking otherwise is very naive. They are making money so Sony is making money, the principle remains the same: making money.

Distributing over IP, providing there is no DRM involved, an image so people can burn it on their blank BluRay media seems appropriate and will release them from their PC.
 
Distributing over the internet is not an option at the moment. You expect people to take a few days and in some cases weeks to download a film, then have to have a burner and pay out for an expensive disc before they can even watch it on their settop player, and then you have the problem that not all settop players will play back BD-r's or BD-re's. I'm working with these kinds of people all the time, yes they are trying to make money, but most small studios run on a very tight budget and having to pay out that kind of money for an unnecessary license just cripples them. I'd have to say that when it comes to this side of the HD debate you aren't that knowledgeable.
 
Adbear said:
Distributing over the internet is not an option at the moment. You expect people to take a few days and in some cases weeks to download a film, then have to have a burner and pay out for an expensive disc before they can even watch it on their settop player, and then you have the problem that not all settop players will play back BD-r's or BD-re's. I'm working with these kinds of people all the time, yes they are trying to make money, but most small studios run on a very tight budget and having to pay out that kind of money for an unnecessary license just cripples them. I'd have to say that when it comes to this side of the HD debate you aren't that knowledgeable.
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The format war isn't over last time I checked. Give it time. When it will be over then it may become an option. Either Mohammed goes to the mountain or the mountain goes to Mohammed. I just don't see the mountain (BluRay) shifting an inch...

By all means let those smaller studios support HD DVD exclusively. So then they will force all the people who don't have a HD DVD player to spend money on it since they can't afford to go neutral. As a consumer, I don't think that's appropriate.

P.S. The level of my knowledge on the matter will always be matter of opinion.
 
Datus said:
Im old enough to remember why and find it strange that studios have too.

Betamax had a license and VHS was FREEEEEEEEEEE.....

Betamax was better than VHS but this time HDDVD is better than BD.

aint the world funny.
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If by "better" you mean audio/video quality then your right about betamax/vhs but wrong about hddvd/bluray.

Blu-ray is technically superior to hd-dvd.
Blu-ray has higher disc capacity, supports higher data transfer rates, higher bitrates.
The only difference is cost (which will eventually go down as does all technology), BD+ and forced AACS.
 
3r1c said:
The only difference is cost (which will eventually go down as does all technology), BD+ and forced AACS.
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And region coding. And no managed copy. And an incomplete standard leaving early adopters out in the cold when it comes to features that are being added that HD DVD had since the beginning. Yup, MUCH better standard. Look, at this point I'm all for one format winning over the other and ending this cursed war, but, let's not kid ourselves...Blu-ray is far from "superior" in MANY ways. It has its strengths, yes, but, so does HD DVD.
 
ivanX said:
By all means let those smaller studios support HD DVD exclusively. So then they will force all the people who don't have a HD DVD player to spend money on it since they can't afford to go neutral. As a consumer, I don't think that's appropriate.
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I don't wish to argue but I have to take issue with your statement here.

You are placing blame on smaller studios who may be forced to stick with HD-DVD if it is viable because they cannot afford to release BD discs with an AACS license. That's one really big way to rationalize things and placing the blame on the wrong party.

The person to blame here is BD and all the people who took part in approving the [partially] completed specifications. Mandated AACS was idiotic. The decision of protecting your media content is fully up to the person who owns the content. That decision should not have been made by some group of people creating the format and forced onto people releasing the actual content.

Remove that mandatory AACS and the issue would be dead.
 
DrinkLyeAndDie said:
I don't wish to argue but I have to take issue with your statement here.

You are placing blame on smaller studios who may be forced to stick with HD-DVD if it is viable because they cannot afford to release BD discs with an AACS license. That's one really big way to rationalize things and placing the blame on the wrong party.

The person to blame here is BD and all the people who took part in approving the [partially] completed specifications. Mandated AACS was idiotic. The decision of protecting your media content is fully up to the person who owns the content. That decision should not have been made by some group of people creating the format and forced onto people releasing the actual content.

Remove that mandatory AACS and the issue would be dead.
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They don't have to go High-Def, if they want to then go HD DVD. Audience not big enough? Go Blu. Too expensive? Tough. Life dealt you a bad hand and whether it was your fault or not you have to deal with it.


The decision to make the protection is up to the people who created the standard, not those who own the content. I don't hear anyone screaming along the same notes about compulsory CSS for DVDs, do you?

AACS will never be removed and asking for it and using it as an argument against BluRay is weak and wastes air.
 
ivanX said:
They don't have to go High-Def, if they want to then go HD DVD. Audience not big enough? Go Blu. Too expensive? Tough. Life dealt you a bad hand and whether it was your fault or not you have to deal with it.
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LOL. Very consumer and industry friendly.

ivanX said:
The decision to make the protection is up to the people who created the standard, not those who own the content. I don't hear anyone screaming along the same notes about compulsory CSS for DVDs, do you?
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Your statement is confusing me. CSS isn't mandatory. A lot of DVDs are released w/o CSS being instructional or actual movies from smaller studios.

ivanX said:
AACS will never be removed and asking for it and using it as an argument against BluRay is weak and wastes air.
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We all have our opinions. I believe it is a very valid issue. Will it be removed? Likely not.

I can't wait for the next generation of format that has no roots in BD.
 
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