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Cinavia, Feb, 1, 2012 and forwards

Clams said:
I'd hardly call enforcing Cinavia "bricking" a player.

-W
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Perhaps a player infected with an anti-consumer trojan horse has some kind of value to you. To me, it has none. A brick has more value to me. But then again, I am me, and you are you.
 
Pelvis Popcan said:
Perhaps a player infected with an anti-consumer trojan horse has some kind of value to you. To me, it has none. A brick has more value to me. But then again, I am me, and you are you.
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Interesting. Well, where i am, when I let go of a hammer, it falls down. I wonder what it does for you?:p
 
Pelvis Popcan said:
Perhaps a player infected with an anti-consumer trojan horse has some kind of value to you. To me, it has none. A brick has more value to me. But then again, I am me, and you are you.
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So you haven't bought a blu-ray player then? AACS, BD+, BD-J, BD Live....all fairly anti-consumer technologies in their own right. Cinavia is just one more piece to the puzzle.
 
Can't say I blame them really. It's just business. They're protecting their investment. It does suck for the consumer though...
 
omegaman7 said:
Can't say I blame them really. It's just business. They're protecting their investment. It does suck for the consumer though...
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I disagree with this. A lot. As I said in another forum, the studios run things like a cartel. They're mandating that anyone who wants to do business with them buy their "protection". Quite literally, sadly! Hardware mfg's do NOT want to put this crap onto their players. Software player mfg's do NOT want to put this crap onto their players. It not only annoys their customers, it drives their costs artificially higher. They have to license this crap in order to implement it. Which, btw, is mandated by the AACS LA if they wish to continue to be "allowed" to sell licensed players. And it costs them a license fee to do so. Nice deal if you can get it! On top of said licensing fees, they now have new testing requirements. Those also aren't cheap. They have to ensure their equipment is compatible with the latest and greatest of the Cinavia spec, which, as we've seen with the PS3, does evolve. So you have to issue updates, test that the updates won't break, and pay for the privilege of providing this crap to your customers, who are now annoyed. Awesome way to run a business!
 
SamuriHL said:
So you haven't bought a blu-ray player then? AACS, BD+, BD-J, BD Live....all fairly anti-consumer technologies in their own right. Cinavia is just one more piece to the puzzle.
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Cinavia is a very different animal than all of those. Those can be defeated completely. It has yet to be seen if it's possible to make a copy of a cinavia infected title play on a cinavia infected player, and if it is possible, how much it degrades or affects original audio. There are no consumer encoders for the high end audio codecs, so you will definitely lose that (on titles that have them) if it is possible to remove cinavia.

In short, the only real solution I see is a player that is not infected. I have ZERO interest in a Cinavia infected player. It is worthless to me. That is my personal opinion.
 
SamuriHL said:
I disagree with this. A lot. As I said in another forum, the studios run things like a cartel. They're mandating that anyone who wants to do business with them buy their "protection". Quite literally, sadly! Awesome way to run a business!
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I suppose it does seem this way LOL! It is truly unfortunate.
 
Pelvis Popcan said:
Cinavia is a very different animal than all of those. Those can be defeated completely. It has yet to be seen if it's possible to make a copy of a cinavia infected title play on a cinavia infected player, and if it is possible, how much it degrades or affects original audio. There are no consumer encoders for the high end audio codecs, so you will definitely lose that (on titles that have them) if it is possible to remove cinavia.

In short, the only real solution I see is a player that is not infected. I have ZERO interest in a Cinavia infected player. It is worthless to me. That is my personal opinion.
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I disagree that it's different. All the technologies I said, if programs weren't around to remove them, would be as anti-consumer towards backups as Cinavia is currently. Once Cinavia becomes a real problem, and if more studios start to use it and all players start to support it, it will be...then SlySoft said they will start to look into it and remove it. So to me, it seems the same as any other annoying protection.
 
omegaman7 said:
I suppose it does seem this way LOL! It is truly unfortunate.
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It really does. I mean, they hold licenses hostage in that if you don't play by their rules, they will yank your license. And any time they decide to license a new technology and include it as part of the AACS spec, they pass that cost on to licensees. How awesome is that?? Like I said, nice gig if you can get it!! :) Sucks for *EVERYONE* else in the food chain.
 
SamuriHL said:
So to me, it seems the same as any other annoying protection.
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Not to me, because it's analog. Every other protection leaves the final "played" content alone. Not Cinavia. Once all decryption is done, it's there, in the unencrypted analog content. No other protection removal requires manipulation of the unencrypted analog content itself in order to defeat it. That means that you lose the original audio codecs and it will have to be recompressed into a consumer accessible format, if it's possible to remove it. That means no 1:1 ISO option for Cinavia removal. No other protection is like that.

The only "real" solution to me is a Cinavia free player, either HTPC, an older Blu-Ray player that cannot physically support cinavia (which I suspect might start to sell for inflated prices on ebay), or a newer player that might be able to be modded to "turn off" Cinavia (I'd keep an eye on JVB Digital for that, if it's even possible that is; I strongly suspect it isn't). There's also the possibility that someone might make some kind of hardware player that plays unencrypted content only (no AACS license, so no cinavia). However, I'm not sure if it would be able to handle all of the commercial audio and video codecs without needing any kind of license.
 
Pelvis Popcan said:
They hurt themselves in the long run.
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True, but they hurt the consumer more in the long run. Because all player manufacturers ultimately have to deal with this (or get out of the business), the consumer then has no choice of non-cinavia hardware players. That in a sick sort of way benefits the player manufacturers since it at least puts them on the same playing field and they can go on to differentiate thier products in other ways (quality, affordability, etc).

So in the end, this all really just screws the consumer as they have to deal with all the issues caused by Cinavia no matter what player they get. Although, if i had to choose between two Cinavia infected players, i would trust someone like Oppo much more to get it "right" than say a Sony player.

Developers don't want to have to deal with this stuff and this is where the better companies seek to take a bad situation and at least minimize the repercussions to the consumer by making the player work as expected despite all the stuff that has to go on behind the scenes.
 
Pelvis Popcan said:
Not to me, because it's analog. Every other protection leaves the final "played" content alone. Not Cinavia. Once all decryption is done, it's there, in the unencrypted analog content. No other protection removal requires manipulation of the unencrypted analog content itself in order to defeat it. That means that you lose the original audio codecs and it will have to be recompressed into a consumer accessible format, if it's possible to remove it. That means no 1:1 ISO option for Cinavia removal. No other protection is like that.

The only "real" solution to me is a Cinavia free player, either HTPC, an older Blu-Ray player that cannot physically support cinavia (which I suspect might start to sell for inflated prices on ebay), or a newer player that might be able to be modded to "turn off" Cinavia (I'd keep an eye on JVB Digital for that, if it's even possible that is; I strongly suspect it isn't). There's also the possibility that someone might make some kind of hardware player that plays unencrypted content only (no AACS license, so no cinavia). However, I'm not sure if it would be able to handle all of the commercial audio and video codecs without needing any kind of license.
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Yea, I see what you're saying. I guess I don't differentiate it all that much from what BD+ does...by corrupting the video stream until the replacement values are added into it. In the case of Cinavia you need to remove it or otherwise corrupt it to the point where it breaks the detector. Which, as you point out, means you have to decode the audio. So I see the difference you're pointing out. In the end I'm not sure it matters. If it becomes an issue, which clearly it's starting to as of this month, then SlySoft will have to treat it just like any other protection and get rid of it for us. :)
 
Oppo Does not support Cinavia

Here is a reply I received today from Oppo:

None of our players support Cinavia as it is not required by our licensing as the players were first manufactured in 2010.

Best Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.
2629B Terminal Blvd.
Mountain View, CA 94043
Service@oppodigital.com
Tel: 650-961-1118
Fax: 650-961-1119
 
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1559005&postcount=1458

Since Oppo has come out with the statement, let me also add some inputs I received at CES:


1. Cinavia is ONLY required if you submit your 'player' to the BDA for licensing after Feb 1st. If your player was licensed before Feb 1st and you decide to sell it anytime (even next year), then, there is no need to implement Cinavia.

2. Some players licensed after Feb 1st may still escape without implementing Cinavia. They can claim while submitting that Cinavia is implemented. BDA issues license after putting the player through the certification process (basically run some tests). However, getting a particular test stream into the certification test is a long drawn out process. Some of the industry insiders told me (off the record, obviously) that the Cinavia testing test streams might take 6 - 8 months or more to be officially added to the certification process. So, even Blu-ray players without Cinavia could get certified by the BDA in that time frame. Obviously, big name players like Sony and Samsung aren't going to do that, but I fully expect small name manufacturers to skimp on Cinavia just for the licensing costs.
__________________

Ganesh T S
Sr. Editor, AnandTech Inc.
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I trust this source completely. This is really great information.
 
Sounds good short term... however, eventually (after several years), all new Blu-Ray players will have it, and whatever format ends up replacing Blu-Ray in the coming years will almost surely have it.

Cinavia does look like it's an effective measure that can be more effectively utilized in the future. Blu-Ray is likely (off the record of course) more of a "test run" to see how effective it can be.

That's not going to stop consumers like me from refusing to play along by buying their locked down "you can only use this the way we'll let you" crap hardware. (That's why I don't use tablets.)
 
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