Cinavia, Feb, 1, 2012 and forwards

[James]

Oppo does not plan to implement Cinavia on their two 2010 models, but they might be forced to.

How? Certainly not by any official AACS license agreement.

Otherwise, all the manufacturers that intend to resist can simply continue to produce those pre-2012 models and bingo no Cinavia. Sales on pre-2012 models could go thru the roof.

Of course they can. But why would sales "go thru the roof"? Apart from a handful of people (which must be masochists and actually burn movies to blank BD-R media) nobody really cares.

I believe Cinavia is a big enought problem right now, not tomorrow, for special interest groups and corporations to take action.

Please explain how Cinavia is "a problem". Use a player without an AACS license. They cost about... nothing.

I believe if Slysoft is going to introduce a new product maybe called Clone BD with a 1 to 2 step back-up from start to finish, which would include a valid removal procedure for Cinavia, the time is now.

Unfortunately we're not ready to deliver just yet, sorry. We don't even have CloneBD out of the door, not even without Cinavia removal.

Waiting for Cinavia to be in full bloom with all the latest tricks and bells and add on's to see what it can do and can't do is not needed for a cure, we know what the core of Cinavia is and from my viewpoint and a lot of other DVD fans it time to take some serious action against Cinavia.:agree:
As stated in another forum, Cinavia infected source disks, Cinavia infected hardware players equals not to be able to build back-up disks that play, and if that is the case, software companies are loosing money because no one is going to buy software products which remove the protections if they can't use the product.

That's the point, just don't use players with Cinavia detection. There are plenty. Actually the majority (if you count the different models, I don't know if the PS3 outsold all the other players, but who in his right mind would use a PS3 for media streaming, this thing sucks).
All these wonderful media players, from Asus, Netgear, WDTV, HiMedia, all want to deliver you their Cinavia detection free playback.

Not to mention XBMC, SlyPlayer & Co. on the PC.

 

[James]

Probably old news to those here:



from http://www.anandtech.com/show/5399/dune-hd-pro-a-premium-entertainment-system-using-the-sigma-designs-smp8910
regarding the new Dune HD Pro

The Dune HD has the problem, that it needs an AACS license for playback of original discs, so I'm afraid it will require Cinavia detection. I wonder if they can skip the detection when playing back media files like avi or mkv, but I believe the "powers that be" won't like that very much, and anyone interested can read the AACS license agreement. It would be very stupid to allow this loophole in the contract.

 

[CueHD]

I was referring more to the point that it is embedded in the SoC from Sigma that Dune uses. Presumably any manufacturer that uses this chip whether or not it even has a BD drive will have Cinavia.

 

[James]

I was referring more to the point that it is embedded in the SoC from Sigma that Dune uses. Presumably any manufacturer that uses this chip whether or not it even has a BD drive will have Cinavia.

Only time will tell, but I am doubtful. This would enable Verance to collect license fees from all manufacturers, regardless if they want / need Cinavia or not.

Do all players enable Macrovision on their analog outputs just because the chipset & SDK allows it?
Macrovision would certainly be pleased and gladly collect the money, but I somehow doubt it. (That's an honest question, because I don't know)

 

[James]

Only time will tell, but I am doubtful. This would enable Verance to collect license fees from all manufacturers, regardless if they want / need Cinavia or not.

More specific: No manufacturer "wants" it (it rises the costs). AACS licensees "need" it.

 

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

Oppo does not plan to implement Cinavia on their two 2010 models, but they might be forced to.

How? Certainly not by any official AACS license agreement.

At this time and from previous statements made, there is no plan to support or implement Cinavia in the currently released Oppo players which includes the BDP-8x and BDP-9x series. Given the information provided by the Ganesh T S from AnandTech Inc this further bolsters my belief that they never will.

We don't know how long the BDP-9x players were in development but the BDP-93 was released to early buyers in November of 2010. The player probably had at least 6 months of development if not longer. I have problems believing that back then the player was required to pass Cinavia requirements. If I wind up being wrong then I'll have no problem admitting it but thus far no one has provided any evidence that the player was manufactured to support Cinavia and that it can be "switched on" to enforce it.

Depending on when development began on Oppo's next player - if they even have begun development - then it's possible the next model might also be free of Cinavia but I won't hold my breath on that one. Officially there is absolutely no word on when the next player model will be released and no information on whether they are currently developing one. I expect the next model to enforce it.

Otherwise, all the manufacturers that intend to resist can simply continue to produce those pre-2012 models and bingo no Cinavia. Sales on pre-2012 models could go thru the roof.

Of course they can. But why would sales "go thru the roof"? Apart from a handful of people (which must be masochists and actually burn movies to blank BD-R media) nobody really cares.

There's been talk in many places of what Cinavia adoption and enforcement will entail. No one really knows. Some speculate that the players in the market already can be enabled to enforce Cinavia which seems improbable that every single one has been produced to support and enforce it. Others have speculated that older players would not be sold but that would be financially bad for manufacturers so that's inconceivable, IMHO. So, I'm left wondering what will be done.

The Blu-Ray format is evolving with new features over time. Current players don't specifically cater to supporting 4k and 4k TVs are emerging. Heck, I even read about an 8k HDTV recently. The way people will buy into buying a new player that enforces Cinavia be will through features either in the players themselves or the Blu-Ray format specification. Only so much can be added to an existing player as opposed to a new player being designed to do more. With a company like Oppo I definitely could see them wanting to cater to upconversion to 4k or 8k even if I think it's overkill for the majority of consumers for the foreseeable future.

 

[Pelvis Popcan]

The Dune HD has the problem, that it needs an AACS license for playback of original discs, so I'm afraid it will require Cinavia detection.

Hopefully their sales will be very low and they can find some kind of evidence to support that it was due to Cinavia. (It seems like the kind of "niche market" product that only those people who know what Cinavia is would buy, and will avoid it because it has the Cinavia trojan.)

 

[James]

Hopefully their sales will be very low and they can find some kind of evidence to support that it was due to Cinavia. (It seems like the kind of "niche market" product that only those people who know what Cinavia is would buy, and will avoid it because it has the Cinavia trojan.)

Yes, it is quite possible that Cinavia might hurt Dune HD sales, as I see the Dune devices primarily as "media players" which play everything you throw at, and Blu-ray playback as a "bonus" feature. Yes, Blu-ray folder and iso playback are nice, too. (I assume the Dune does this, I only have a Popcorn Hour C200, which does).

I probably don't want a "universal media player" with Cinavia detection.
So the Blu-ray playback -> AACS license -> Cinavia requirement really is a showstopper.

But not only the Dune, a Popcorn Hour C200/300 successor would face the same dilemma.

 

[SamuriHL]

Yes, it is quite possible that Cinavia might hurt Dune HD sales, as I see the Dune devices primarily as "media players" which play everything you throw at, and Blu-ray playback as a "bonus" feature. Yes, Blu-ray folder and iso playback are nice, too. (I assume the Dune does this, I only have a Popcorn Hour C200, which does).

I probably don't want a "universal media player" with Cinavia detection.
So the Blu-ray playback -> AACS license -> Cinavia requirement really is a showstopper.

But not only the Dune, a Popcorn Hour C200/300 successor would face the same dilemma.

Indeed. I would only accept media streaming devices that have no AACS license. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for failure at least in the short term. Personally I stick with the HTPC because then I can control what software I use. Plus AnyDVD gives me far more options on that front than any media streaming device. Once you throw that AACS license in there, you can be sure that eventually your future lies with Cinavia detection.

 

[Rodster]

Personally I think the BD manufacturers with the AACS agreement are shooting themselves in the foot. I'd love to see a Court challenge the AACS agreement. Don't they realise when more people wake up to this "restriction" method that people will buy less hardware / movies which negates more sales / profit? Or are they all on this magic dust where they think people will just be ignorant and swallow everything they are spoon fed? I think it should be a requirment that all Cinavia supported players have the "cinavia" logo on them as this helps the consumer choose not to buy this player.

Yes, Im using logic - something which the studios and others dont use - they just think in $$$$ terms and stuff the rest. If consumers are more inconvenience by buying legitimate BD movies / players due to Cinavia, this will have a reverse effect. I also think legally the protection system must state how it basically works on the packaging (here in Australia under the TPA), not just stamp a logo on the packaging.

 

[andy o]

The average consumer is much more likely to be inconvenienced by other things, like the constant updates required for AACS and BD+ compatibility. I have at least 2 friends who bought a spanking new PC with blu-ray, only to realize later that it's not worth it trying to make it work. We see people like that on the forums as well, all the time, with the inevitable recommendation that they shell out $$$ for a software player that is most likely buggy, intrusive and a pain to set up properly.

I don't see Cinavia itself bothering anyone in the mainstream market, to be honest, except of course people who are used to torrent movies and playing on the PS3, but I still don't know if they can be called "mainstream".

 

[George++]

The average consumer is much more likely to be inconvenienced by other things, like the constant updates required for AACS and BD+ compatibility.

The PITA updating, manual or otherwise, of BD standalone players makes me hesitate going Bluray over DVD. I want to watch a movie, turn on the TV and pop the disc into the player and relax, not waste time and major effort mucking about to make sure I can watch the latest garbage the studios shove down our throats.

The studios treat everyone as a thief, grrrrrrrrr.

 

[SamuriHL]

Oh I wouldn't worry about the update process. It's quite simple. It'll tell you there's an update, you tell it to install, and it's done. Long gone are the days of having to manually download it and install it. Still, in terms of Cinavia, stand alone players are the highest risk right now. Certain stand alones (i.e. Oppo) are safer than others. But, the HTPC has far more control over the player used to play your content, and therefore is a better solution if you're concerned with playing Cinavia laden backups IMO.

 

[omegaman7]

What happens if the reason somebody is plugging in a movie, is because their internet is down. Passing the time so to speak. And they have to update the player. Thanks a lot guys...

 

[SamuriHL]

That's a fairly unlikely scenario. I mean, player updates to fix title compatibility are not rare, however, wouldn't they just put a movie in that they know works in that case? And then update when their internet is no longer down? I mean, seriously, that scenario is just LOOKING for a problem.

 

[omegaman7]

Ahh but it is a factor Of course one could plug in a different movie. I'll never have a problem with it myself. Our player only ever sees backups

Unless we're impatient for the backup. in which case we plug in the original.

 

[SamuriHL]

Yea, and how many times have you encountered the "sorry you need an update to play this disc" messages? I'd argue that the answer to that is 0. Again, that's just LOOKING for a problem that doesn't exist IMO.

 

[omegaman7]

I believe Avatar was one of the more known releases, that required an update from most players. I could be mistaken on that. I don't recall if the Samsung needed one at the time.

 

[SamuriHL]

Sure it does happen. But to tout that as some major problem is a huge stretch. Whenever Fox screws with BD+ it breaks things. I hope you're not deluded to think that the internet being out is the issue in that case....the issue is the many DAYS or WEEKS it took player mfg's to get the update out. That's a far bigger issue than not having internet for a few hours. And when the updates did come, if you have a profile 2.0 player or higher, then they're pretty seamless. The player tells you the update exists, you install it, done.

 

[George++]

Oh I wouldn't worry about the update process. It's quite simple. It'll tell you there's an update, you tell it to install, and it's done. Long gone are the days of having to manually download it and install it. Still, in terms of Cinavia, stand alone players are the highest risk right now. Certain stand alones (i.e. Oppo) are safer than others. But, the HTPC has far more control over the player used to play your content, and therefore is a better solution if you're concerned with playing Cinavia laden backups IMO.

I've been considering going the HTPC route because of the long-term extensibility versus a stand-alone player. Buying and upgrading a PC piecemeal is financially something easier to do on a limited budget as I have. I could use the HTPC as my main ripper machine so that frees up resources, another side benefit.

As I said, considering and making some price/technical comparisons. When DVD becomes defunct I know where I'll have to go. Until then DVD quality is more than sufficient for what the majority of my watching is (old TV shows and old movies).

As usual everything comes down to how much money I can and want to spend. *sigh*