Non-SlyPlayer related TMT Stuff

[Webslinger]

Lol, its getting funny here...
What equipment do you have to say its nonesens?

That's the source of your misunderstanding. It doesn't matter what you hear because the end user is going to have a very hard time testing properly.

By the way, a friend of mine has audio hardware costing well over $200,000 in his home. I can hear the difference on his equipment and on mine as well (which is worse than yours), but that's only due to testing limitations (hardware/where decoding is occurring, etc.)

So although I can hear the difference on end-user systems I don't go around claiming LCPM sounds differently. Basically, most end users are not able to compare apples to apples.

I think its kind of ignorant and arrogant to make such a statement, and its even not factual too.

Actually, it is factual. LCPM makes no difference in sound labs. The variance is only due to hardware or software issues with respect to where and how decoding is occurring.

If you have an oppinion that in your eyes/ears there is no difference, OK.

It's not an opinion. And what do my eyes have to do with sound?

But please do not say that what I defenitely KNOW for a fact (I did the testing with others agreeing on what I wrote!) is nonesense.

Really? Have they done post-graduate work? Do they have PhDs and work in sound labs? 'Cause "others agreeing on what I wrote" do.

Thanks a lot!

You're welcome.

 

[Webslinger]

And if people buy a high-end audio card for gaming, well, then nobody can help these people...

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_hometheater_hd.php

Is there a SA Player with EAX support on the market?

Who cares? Is there an SA player that can play PC games?

 

[w1seman]

That's your problem. It doesn't matter what you hear because the end user is going to have a very hard time testing properly.

By the way, a friend of mine has audio hardware costing well over $200,000 in his home. I can hear the difference on his equipment and on mine as well, but that's only due to testing limitations (hardware/where decoding is occurring, etc.)



Actually, it is factual. LCPM makes no difference in sound labs. The variance is only due to hardware or software issues with respect to where and how decoding is occurring.




Really? Have they done post-graduate work? Do they have PhDs and work in sound labs? 'Cause "others agreeing on what I wrote" do.



You're welcome.

Only one answer to that:

Its not about the explaination WHY there is a difference, its about the fact THAT there is difference.

 

[w1seman]

lol

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_hometheater_hd.php






Who cares? Is there an SA player that can play games?

i bet my ass that people buying such a card due to gaming have a sound equipment that costs as much as one of my bass drivers of one of my 8 Atlas DSM MK III.
For them it doesn't make a difference if they have bitstream or just molested PowerDVD crap sound.

And btw. where can one buy this great soundcard, when is its REAL release date, and more important when will it be fully supported by any player at all (PDVD 9, Q3? rofl)?
And last, who knows that it will be working perfectly at all? Everything we have is an internet page, thats all...

Ah I forgot the perfect support of the Creative/Auzentech guys... :clap:

Regarding the Slyplayer: I am very satisfied with the products from Slysoft. And if there will be any advantage of Slyplayer over TMT I will defenitaly buy it, no question.
HD-DVD will be no such thing...

 

[Webslinger]

Its not about the explaination WHY there is a difference, its about the fact THAT there is difference, period.

There is no difference in sound labs.

*sigh* forget it

 

[SamuriHL]

Feel free to continue this discussion as I've moved it out of the SlyPlayer thread.

 

[Webslinger]

i bet my ass that people buying such a card due to gaming

The card I linked to may end up being priced higher than the Xonar. It certainly won't end up costing a lot less than the Xonar in North America. So why would anyone believe what you've written?

People (myself included, provided the drivers don't suck horribly) will buy this card because they don't want to be limited by what they can do with their soundcard--unlike those that bought a Xonar.

have a sound equipment that costs as much as one of my bass drivers of one of my 8 Atlas DSM MK III.

You're mistaken if you think your audio gear is truly high-end. That really doesn't matter though. Yes, I can hear a difference on most end-user audio gear. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

For them it doesn't make a difference if they have bitstream or just molested PowerDVD crap sound.

The people you're talking about would never buy the soundcard I linked to because they won't be able to afford it.

And btw. where can one buy this great soundcard, when is its REAL release date, and more important when will it be fully supported by any player at all (PDVD 9, 3 Q? rofl).

The point is that a company wouldn't produce a bitstreaming capable card with EAX 5.0 support if there were no demand for such a card.

Why would I buy Powerdvd 9? It's horribly buggy. And why would I be foolish enough to rely on Cyberlink for anything?
I would be far more willing to rely on Slysoft.

And what makes you think Auzentech wants to be the only company to produce a soundcard that offers bitstreaming audio with EAX support?

This is what you wrote originally:

And if people buy a high-end audio card for gaming, well, then nobody can help these people...
HDAV is a hig-end Blu-Ray Audio card and not a tool for gamers to hear their games in EAX 5 or whatsoever.

More importantly, if there's no demand for such a card, then why is Auzentech developing it?

Even if the card is never released, the fact that Auzentech attempted to develop it proves that you're mistaken.


According to you, "there's no hope for these people". That's in your subjective opinion.

And last, who knows that it will be working perfectly at all?

I already know the Xonar doesn't.

Ah I forgot the perfect support of the Creative/Auzentech guys...

Auzentech's support is typically better than Creative's.

And while I may agree with you about Creative (actually I do agree with you here), that doesn't change the fact that people do buy high-end audio cards for gaming. You can keep introducing all the red herrings you want to; that doesn't change the fact that what you're writing is wrong.

Anyway, I couldn't care less what further erroneous beliefs you may express in this thread; I won't be responding further except to moderate.

 

[w1seman]

The card I linked to may end up being priced higher than the Xonar. So why would anyone believe what you're written?

People (myself included, provided the drivers don't suck horribly) will buy this card because they don't want to be limited by what they can do with their soundcard--unlike those that bought a Xonar.

You're sadly mistaken if you think your audio gear is truly high-end.

The people you're talking about would never buy the soundcard I linked to because they won't be able to afford it.

Why would I buy Powerdvd 9? It's horribly buggy. And why would I be foolish enough to rely on Cyberlink for anything?

And what makes you think Auzentech will be the only company to produce a soundcard that offers bitstreaming audio with EAX support?

I already know the Xonar doesn't.

Auzentech's support is typically better than Creative's.

And while I may agree with you about Creative, that doesn't change the fact that people do buy high-end audio cards for gaming. You can keep introducing all the red herrings you want to; that doesn't change the fact that what you're writing is wrong.

Anyway, I couldn't care less what further erroneous beliefs you may express in this thread; I won't be responding further except to moderate.

Well as I said, your ignorant. Thats typical for people who have no real facts and arguments to come up with.

One is for sure, you have absolutely no clue about what u are talking about when you say my equipment is no high-end gear at all.

Its 100 % sure that you have never heard them in action, that you have no clue about what people knowing them say about them. They easily beat every speaker in the range of 5.000-20.000 Euro (per speaker!).
Still the ATLAS cost over 5.000 Euro each making it a sum of 40.000 Euro in total.
Well I wonder where high end gear begins in your world, but who knows....

And one thing for you: For me and many many others, the HDAV works perfectly, I miss NOTHING AT ALL.

Btw. what other soundcard do you know which will officially support bitstreaming, I know NONE else.

However I can 100 % agree on what you say about Cyberlink.

 

[Webslinger]

Well as I said, your ignorant.

I really couldn't care less what you call me. But should you insult anyone else on these forums, you're going to find your account banned. oliceman:

On a personal note, if someone wants to call me names when I'm not trying to help them (not troubleshooting), I probably won't ban that person. I take exception when people start insulting me when I'm trying to help them; that pisses me off.

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?p=108609#post108609

"While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters.

We also reserve the right to ban anyone who wilfully violates the forum rules, as access to our support forums is a privilege and not a right. A banned customer is still entitled to support from the support system."

Do consider this a warning. oliceman:

Its 100 % sure that you have never heard them in action

Think again

 

[SamuriHL]

Btw. what other soundcard do you know which will officially support bitstreaming, I know NONE else.

And that's the point I've been making. ONE freaking card on the market. Originally tied to an OEM version of a player, although I will give them credit for introducing support for it in their latest retail offering. Granted, that's not for sale yet so we can't know for sure how well it works. But ONE card that works with ONE player. And you don't see a problem with this? I do. It's unacceptable on any level. I don't care if it works or not, there's no choice for the user. If they want bitstreaming on their HTPC, they MUST go this route right now. I'm not ok with that. It's possible I'll end up with a XONAR at some point if the Auzentech doesn't pan out (and I have zero faith that it will) soon. But, don't think for a minute that I'm "happy" about the situation in the least. They're forcing us into crappy hardware (and let's face it, outside of bitstreaming BD audio, it IS a crappy card) tied to a particular player in order to take advantage of the content we purchase. Yea, that's awesome.

 

[w1seman]

I really couldn't care less what you call me. But should you insult anyone else on these forums, you're going to find your account banned. oliceman:

On a personal note, if someone wants to call me names when I'm not trying to help them (not troubleshooting), I probably won't ban that person. I take exception when people start insulting me when I'm trying to help them; that pisses me off.

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?p=108609#post108609

"While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters.

We also reserve the right to ban anyone who wilfully violates the forum rules, as access to our support forums is a privilege and not a right. A banned customer is still entitled to support from the support system."

Do consider this a warning. oliceman:



Think again

Where did Insult anybody or when did I break with any of the am rules?
I can't find anything, help me. Thx.
Did I call you names, which?

Wasn't it you saying I was telling nonsense?

 

[w1seman]

And that's the point I've been making. ONE freaking card on the market. Originally tied to an OEM version of a player, although I will give them credit for introducing support for it in their latest retail offering. Granted, that's not for sale yet so we can't know for sure how well it works. But ONE card that works with ONE player. And you don't see a problem with this? I do. It's unacceptable on any level. I don't care if it works or not, there's no choice for the user. If they want bitstreaming on their HTPC, they MUST go this route right now. I'm not ok with that. It's possible I'll end up with a XONAR at some point if the Auzentech doesn't pan out (and I have zero faith that it will) soon. But, don't think for a minute that I'm "happy" about the situation in the least. They're forcing us into crappy hardware (and let's face it, outside of bitstreaming BD audio, it IS a crappy card) tied to a particular player in order to take advantage of the content we purchase. Yea, that's awesome.

There is only one Porsche Turbo, yet I own it.
Should I not drive one because there is no competition?

If a thing works and does what its supposed to do (at least in my and many others cases), why shouldn't I buy it?

 

[SamuriHL]

There is only one Porsche Turbo, yet I own it.
Should I not drive one because there is no competition?

If a thing works and does what its supposed to do (at least in my and many others cases), why shouldn't I buy it?

If that one solution works for you, great. However, just because there's only one Porsche Turbo, maybe I want a Ferrari F50. I should have a choice. Currently I don't.

 

[Webslinger]

Where did Insult anybody

You called me ignorant. As I wrote before, you can probably call me whatever you want without me much caring unless I'm trying to help you in a troubleshooting thread. You call anyone else ignorant though, and you're going to find yourself banned pretty quickly.

Wasn't it you saying I was telling nonsense?

You wrote, "LPCM sounds different to bitstream."

I responded, "That is complete nonsense."

What I wrote is not an insult; it's a fact, and I wasn't ascribing negative character traits to you.

Is your mother tongue German (or not English)? If it's not English, then fine--but don't call anyone else here ignorant.

 

[w1seman]

You called me ignorant.



You wrote, "LPCM sounds different to bitstream."

I responded, "That is complete nonsense."

What I wrote is not an insult; it's a fact, and I wasn't describing you.

When u say what I write is nonsense you are not saying that I tell nonsense?

Excuse me, can you please explain me the difference?
To say someone is telling nonsense is no insult?
Maybe this is something like a language barrier, english is not my mother language.
Thx!

And btw. its a fact for you that it doesn't sound different whereas its a fact for me (and many many others) that it does sound different.

 

[JediTim]

I guess I need to make a decision then.

I just built my first HTPC running Vista Home Premium. I have all of my movies backed up on a Windows Home Server and use MyMovies to access them via Media Center. I did not install the software that came with my Blu-ray player (LG GGC-H20L) since it is PDVD7 OEM.

What would you suggest I get in the meantime while waiting for the Slysoft Player? My choices seem to be PDVD9, TMT / TMT Extreme / TMT 3 Platinum.

Should I just install the OEM PDVD8 and await the slysoft player? What would you do?
Tim

 

[SamuriHL]

Hold off for a few days. According to Jason at ArcSoft a trial of TMT 3 will be coming out (minus support for the Dolby formats...they aren't very happy about that either). I'd recommend giving the trial a shot and see how that works for you. It was confirmed by Jason that TMT3 has HD DVD support still so that's a plus. I plan on upgrading to it myself as soon as it's available.

 

[Webslinger]

When u say what I write is nonsense you are not saying that I tell nonsense?

I was saying that the claim that LCPM sounds different than bitstreaming is nonsense. I didn't say that you were ignorant or stupid.

Maybe this is something like a language barrier, english is not my mother language.

Forget it, then. Just don't call people ignorant on these forums. That's an insult.

And btw. its a fact for you that it doesn't sound different whereas its a fact for me that it sounds different.

*sigh*

I can hear the difference on my equipment too (which is worse than yours)--depending on the player being used when going to my receiver. Everyone can probably hear the difference. The difference isn't huge, but there is a slight difference. I don't disagree that you probably hear a difference. I'm saying this kind of testing isn't accurate--especially involving something as subjective as hearing as a test method.

Look, in theory, LCPM should sound no different than bitstreaming. This holds true in sound labs.

But when people start sending LCPM from their Blu-ray players where is the sound processing occurring? Where is it being decoded? When audio is bitstreamed to a receiver where is the sound processing occurring? Is it not possible that if I choose to send LCPM from a cheap $200 Blu-ray player that I may end up with inferior sound than when bitstreaming to a $1000-$80,000 receiver? Sure. Why is that? Well, where is the audio being processed?

If you're just examining LCPM being sent from a receiver, then have you hooked up a spectrum analyzers and other testing equipment to examine signal, output, and waveform to compare when bitstreaming? And if there is a difference, then there may be some sort of limitation (hardware not implemented properly) in the receiver itself.

Anyway, that's fine. You don't agree with me, and you think I'm ignorant. You also seem to think that people who put together HTPCs don't also want to use their audio cards to play games either. Simply stated, we disagree with each other.

 

[andy o]

However, just because there's only one Porsche Turbo, maybe I want a Ferrari F50.

Hey, the 90's are calling, they'd like you to let go.

w1seman, seriously, what you are failing to understand (as we've said in the AVS thread) is that we're not denying that you found a difference in what you tested, it's just that you did not isolate bitstream vs. player-decoded LPCM. Webslinger even said he heard differences with cheaper equipment. What more do you want? You guys are actually saying the same things, only you're either coming to the wrong conclusion, or you're conveying your message confusingly, cause our impression is that you're saying that bitstreaming is inherently better than player decoding somehow.

 

[SamuriHL]

Hey, the 90's are calling, they'd like you to let go.

WAHHH! Another car I couldn't afford.

w1seman, seriously, what you are failing to understand (as we've said in the AVS thread) is that we're not denying that you found a difference in what you tested, it's just that you did not isolate bitstream vs. player-decoded LPCM. Webslinger even said he heard differences with cheaper equipment. What more do you want? You guys are actually saying the same things, only you're either coming to the wrong conclusion, or you're conveying your message confusingly, cause our impression is that you're saying that bitstreaming is inherently better than player decoding somehow.

Correct. I'm quite sure that there is a big difference between what I can get from LPCM on my machine and what he's getting through bitstreaming. And the reason, as I've said before, is that the software decoding thoroughly sucks and is manipulating the audio stream. He claims there's a difference with a hardware player doing LPCM vs bitstreaming, as well, which leads me to believe that his receiver is manipulating the audio after decoding it. The claim here is that there's some kind of metadata buried in the encoded audio stream. I'm not sure how many times I have to say the same thing on this issue....here's one last try at this. I FIRMLY believe that receivers can do post processing of a decoded stream to make it sound "different". (Better is subjective) My belief is that when the receiver gets an LPCM track it doesn't do this post processing and thus sounds "different". I have stated this belief many times. Yet there is still an insistence that some magical bitstreaming effect is going on to make it sound SO MUCH BETTER. Yea, yea, sure sure. LPCM is LPCM...eventually the DTS-HD MA or TrueHD track has to be decoded into LPCM. What happens after that point is up to whoever decoded it.