Blocked BD copy playback (Cinavia)

[sierra117]

ive heard of this protection first on this forum but thought nothing of it since it didnt affect my backups till this day when i tried to playback the Larry Crowne mp4 i made thru my ps3 via my wd my book live (NAS/streaming).

from what ive read about it, complete circumvention is going to be a real royal pita. and whats to stop this technology from spreading to watermarking the video streams as well ? it would be impossible to crack without the algorithm.

i must say i was shocked. one question, is the player doing this internally or communicating with the internet to validate watermarks ?

a good reason to stick with full blown pc's for playback.
if this tech does wind up in software frequently, it will eventually be exposed and reverse engineered. but personally, in terms of circumvention, i'd prefer to have it done with anydvd hd rather than buy CloneBD.

 

[SamuriHL]

It doesn't require an internet connection to find the embedded Cinavia signal. There was some completely nonsense report that disconnecting the PS3 from the internet would allow them to play but that seems to be BS. The player knows how to find the embedded signal and once detected, it knows how to handle it based on the type of Cinavia signal it finds. Yes, this protection is a pain. And yes, the standard can be extended to many different types of media. Yey for the future, yea?

 

[SamuriHL]

P.S. This protection will not be able to be removed with AnyDVD. AnyDVD is for real time protection removal. Cinavia is going to require a freaking scalpel to remove it. Definitely not possible in real time.

 

[sierra117]

P.S. This protection will not be able to be removed with AnyDVD. AnyDVD is for real time protection removal. Cinavia is going to require a freaking scalpel to remove it. Definitely not possible in real time.

thats what i figured as well ... eventually, the algorithm will find its way into the wild, but when it does, cinavia will get smart and morph into something more sophisticated. kind of like how itunes updates frequently to prevent apps like requiem from stripping drm from itunes purchases.

its just a bump in the road i guess, when i dont want to be bothered with it i can use the original, but leaving discs laying around when u have a toddler (or a pet) is not a good idea

 

[SamuriHL]

thats what i figured as well ... eventually, the algorithm will find its way into the wild, but when it does, cinavia will get smart and morph into something more sophisticated. kind of like how itunes updates frequently to prevent apps like requiem from stripping drm from itunes purchases.

its just a bump in the road i guess, when i dont want to be bothered with it i can use the original, but leaving discs laying around when u have a toddler (or a pet) is not a good idea

Believe me I understand. My son is terrible with discs. PC's rock. That's all I can say. Convert that to an MKV, use a non-commercial player such as MPC-HC or JRiver MC17, good to go.

 

[sierra117]

It doesn't require an internet connection to find the embedded Cinavia signal. There was some completely nonsense report that disconnecting the PS3 from the internet would allow them to play but that seems to be BS. The player knows how to find the embedded signal and once detected, it knows how to handle it based on the type of Cinavia signal it finds. Yes, this protection is a pain. And yes, the standard can be extended to many different types of media. Yey for the future, yea?

i made a stink because i really frown on the idea that what i am doing with my devices in my home is my business and nobody else's ... its like bd live, i always say no to it because i just dont want systems/companies to register that i watch movies x y z, etc.

 

[SamuriHL]

i made a stink because i really frown on the idea that what i am doing with my devices in my home is my business and nobody else's ... its like bd live, i always say no to it because i just dont want systems/companies to register that i watch movies x y z, etc.

Yup, I couldn't agree more. For me, I like making a video library of my movies that I can share across my network to any machine in the house. No having to get up, find the disc, etc. The discs stay up on my shelf. I personally like having all my movies at the touch of a remote. These idiotic protection schemes are trying to make that impossible. If they succeed, they will not like my response. I'll simply stop buying movies. I have netflix and rent ones I don't want to buy now. If they make it so I can't backup the movies I do buy, then, I will simply not bother because it'd be a waste of money. If I can just order a movie up on Netflix to rent and have it show up in a day or two, then there's no reason to buy them. It's the convenience of consuming them the way I want that keeps me shopping...

 

[sierra117]

i am doing an experiment that involves taking the speed/pitch of the audio track and manipulating it very very slightly, then remuxing it back into the mp4 file. i will post back if it works to 'trick' the ps3 into thinking the watermarks are not there.

 

[Ch3vr0n]

won't work, that's already been tried. You're doing reencoding on the digital level. The cinavia signal is on the analogue level

 

[sierra117]

won't work, that's already been tried. You're doing reencoding on the digital level. The cinavia signal is on the analogue level

is the protection embedded as audible tones or sound markers that are part of the audio we can hear ? or is it inaudible frequencies that can be detected by a microphone but not the human ear ?

my reasoning is that if the watermark signals can be spread a fraction of a second apart in either direction then it may be possible that the decoder in the player will not identify the watermarks. on the flip side, if timing is not important to the protection scheme, but frequency and amplitude are, then cropping of the dB level might prevent the watermark from being detected.

 

[rotty dog]

Existing audio

is the protection embedded as audible tones or sound markers that are part of the audio we can hear ? or is it inaudible frequencies that can be detected by a microphone but not the human ear ?

my reasoning is that if the watermark signals can be spread a fraction of a second apart in either direction then it may be possible that the decoder in the player will not identify the watermarks. on the flip side, if timing is not important to the protection scheme, but frequency and amplitude are, then cropping of the dB level might prevent the watermark from being detected.

Cinavia modifies the existing analogue audio in such a way as to be not particularly noticable, but, because it is just manipulation of the existing audio, it is of course well within the audible range.

There may be other components to the marking that are also present that if so are just additions to the forementioned.

 

[sierra117]

Cinavia modifies the existing analogue audio in such a way as to be not particularly noticable, but, because it is just manipulation of the existing audio, it is of course well within the audible range.

There may be other components to the marking that are also present that if so are just additions to the forementioned.

for the first component you mentioned, if the algorithm is designed to detect a certain signal of a certain duration, frequency and amplification, then the algorithm would need to be reverse engineered.

if there are additional watermarks in the audio/video then those would be exposed by the algorithm.

i guess we have to wait for devs to expose how it works in detail, then slysoft and others can get on with a workaround.

 

[canadien37]

Conspiracy Theory?

Duke, have you ever heard the saying, "you're missing the forest for the trees"?

It's not about this one disk, it's about the fact that they will be sticking this crap on probably every disk if it has even a modicum of success.

What if I don't WANT to play the original disk? That defeats the whole point of making my own movie server. What if I don't want to invest in HDCP compliant hardware to play my originals?

So the point i'm trying to make is that it isn't about one disk, it's about denying the studios the control they seek in telling me how to consume the media that i've purchased.

The moment that I upload a copyrighted video to the net or start selling copies of my purchased media, then by all means, they are justified in being upset with me. But as long as I'm backing up my media for watching on my home media center or my wife's ipod, or laptop.....then they just need to stay off my lawn!!!!!!

I just wonder, with Cinavia implemented, making it difficult to back up purchased discs for playback on any device on one hand, then you have the Ultraviolet ecosystem, promising the moon concerning access to your purchased content on the other, could it be that we are being steered to the cloud?

I don't mean to turn the thread into a UV one, but I find it interesting that on one hand, fair use rights are being stymied for content on physical media, but are given all kinds of access through UV......Just sayin'

 

[SamuriHL]

Except for the delivery on that promise, of course. UV sucks. It's a brilliant idea. It's a TERRIBLE implementation. And I point again to the fact that only 1 or 2 studios have embraced Cinavia. At this point in the game you'd think ALL the studios would be trying it out in test markets. That doesn't seem to be the case. So I really don't know what's going on with it, but, it definitely seems strange to me.

 

[PrincipalityFusion]

I find it strange as well that there is not more Cinavia implementation. I wonder if it's a cost thing. You have the costs associated with a BD license, AACLS license, coupled with the fact that the studios just don't sell as many disks as they used to and you have some paper thin profit margins.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some technical limitation as well. Either way, it's not unheard of. BD+ isn't used by all the studios either. So like you say, only time will tell how this all pans out.

 

[SamuriHL]

Yea, not sure why BD+ wasn't adopted by more studios, either. I mean, it's marginally successful in some ways. I'd LOVE to think it's because the studios realize this kind of nonsense is futile and a waste of money, but, I'm too cynical.

 

[canadien37]

Except for the delivery on that promise, of course. UV sucks. It's a brilliant idea. It's a TERRIBLE implementation. And I point again to the fact that only 1 or 2 studios have embraced Cinavia. At this point in the game you'd think ALL the studios would be trying it out in test markets. That doesn't seem to be the case. So I really don't know what's going on with it, but, it definitely seems strange to me.

I was unaware that number of studios embraced Cinavia.....only 1 or 2?

I thought all of them supported it.....maybe the economy has something to do with it.....Crack in the armor, maybe?
:agree:

 

[SamuriHL]

I was unaware that number of studios embraced Cinavia.....only 1 or 2?

I thought all of them supported it.....maybe the economy has something to do with it.....Crack in the armor, maybe?
:agree:

Well there's a huge difference between supporting it and actually using it. ALL of the studios support it. But only 1 or 2 (Sony and maybe Warner Bros) are actually actively using it on discs. No one is sure why that is.

 

[canadien37]

From the post on this forum, Cinavia will be enforced on Feb. 1, 2012.......Here is piece that was telling, and fed my view all studios are involved......"Cinavia, the standard for protection of filmed entertainment content, employs Verance watermarking technologies to extend the existing content security architecture for Blu-ray Disc to protect against the use of unauthorized copies of commercial movies, such as those originating from in-theater camcording or “ripped” Blu-ray Discs or DVDs. Cinavia has been licensed by major motion picture studios including Universal Studios, Sony Pictures Entertainment, Warner Bros. Entertainment, and Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation and employed in numerous theatrical, Blu-ray Disc, and DVD releases."

Do I have it wrong?

 

[canadien37]

Well there's a huge difference between supporting it and actually using it. ALL of the studios support it. But only 1 or 2 (Sony and maybe Warner Bros) are actually actively using it on discs. No one is sure why that is.

Ok, you have a point there......Things that make you go hmmmm......