3D blu-Ray to hard drive doubles the data...

[tapidlittle]

I am trying ANYDVD HD and it looks great.

I need to output my 3D Blu-Ray to hard drive because the Oppo does not support ISO anymore. It works fine the only thing weird is that the data is doubled (like 80gb for Cars 2 instead of 40gb), any options to prevent that??

Playing the content with the Oppo is flawless, so I was just wondering to save some space and extraction time.

thank you for any comments.

 

[Ch3vr0n]

You can't rip a 3d disc to files because then it does exactly that. The files in the bdmv/stream/ssif folder are virtual links. They don't actually exist on the disc, those files only become "real" when you rip to files.

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[RBBrittain]

You can't rip a 3d disc to files because then it does exactly that. The files in the bdmv/stream/ssif folder are virtual links. They don't actually exist on the disc, those files only become "real" when you rip to files.

Though basically correct, that may be an oversimplification. I always understood the .ssif files contained both crosslinks to the AVC first stream (eye) in the .m2ts files--the bulk of a typical .ssif file's nominal size--and the MVC "difference" data needed to recreate the "second stream" (the "SS" in SSIF) from the first one. On BD, the crosslinks are virtual (and thus are duplicated when copying to HDD), but the additional MVC data is not. If the .ssif files were 100% virtual, any riptool could probably recreate them easily from the other files once those are copied to HDD.

 

[Pete]

Though basically correct, that may be an oversimplification. I always understood the .ssif files contained both crosslinks to the AVC first stream (eye) in the .m2ts files--the bulk of a typical .ssif file's nominal size--and the MVC "difference" data needed to recreate the "second stream" (the "SS" in SSIF) from the first one. On BD, the crosslinks are virtual (and thus are duplicated when copying to HDD), but the additional MVC data is not. If the .ssif files were 100% virtual, any riptool could probably recreate them easily from the other files once those are copied to HDD.

No, the ssif files are 100% covered by their "m2ts originals".
There's always one m2ts for the left eye and another with the right-eye-difference.

I think, the only reason for the ssif's existence, is to force the player to read strictly sequential (avoid any kind of additional seeking).
The two m2ts stream files are physically interleaved, but if the player would read from both files simultaneously, but individually, it would read random amounts and would still cause seeking when switching from one stream to the other or reading past the gaps, that the other stream is occupying.
But reading a single ssif file forces a strict sequential sector order.

 

[Roycal]

No, the ssif files are 100% covered by their "m2ts originals".
There's always one m2ts for the left eye and another with the right-eye-difference.

I think, the only reason for the ssif's existence, is to force the player to read strictly sequential (avoid any kind of additional seeking).
The two m2ts stream files are physically interleaved, but if the player would read from both files simultaneously, but individually, it would read random amounts and would still cause seeking when switching from one stream to the other or reading past the gaps, that the other stream is occupying.
But reading a single ssif file forces a strict sequential sector order.

That's very interesting but it comes down to, "how do you extract a 3D movie to a format that is manageable and does not duplicate data?" Obviously there is "imaginary" GBytes occupied by virtual references.

With the goal of re-encoding, so far no one has seem to come up with a manageable way to extract a 3D blu ray. Not sure why that would be such a huge task for the determined. Likely it has not been done because there is not a huge demand for it. Most people who want to backup a 3D movie want to keep the original resolution and not re-encode it.

 

[Pete]

That's very interesting but it comes down to, "how do you extract a 3D movie to a format that is manageable and does not duplicate data?" Obviously there is "imaginary" GBytes occupied by virtual references.

With the goal of re-encoding, so far no one has seem to come up with a manageable way to extract a 3D blu ray. Not sure why that would be such a huge task for the determined. Likely it has not been done because there is not a huge demand for it. Most people who want to backup a 3D movie want to keep the original resolution and not re-encode it.

It hasn't been done, because it really is a huge task.
All re-encoders rebuild the required files and then "stupidly" throw them into an ISO file or burn them to disc. One file at a time. That's totally fine for a 2D BD.
But that is simply not possible with a 3D BD.
3D streams belonging together need to be mastered correctly by interleaving them in little chunks, aligning them and then overlaying them with the corresponding ssif file.
Not trivial at all - the sector allocation is a nightmare.

There are other issues and shortcomings with regular reencoded discs that no one ever notices, but fall into a similar category: all those BACKUP and DUPLICATE files on the disc, meant to be redundant fallback files normally should physically end up on sectors "far away" from their originals, so a scratch or any other kind of damage wouldn't kill both the original AND the backup.

With your average every-day self-made ISO, you'll typically end up with the backup files being right on top of their original versions (with a certain option in ImgBurn "optimise duplicate files", that can be taken literally: they will actually occupy the exact same space), simply because the image creation tools don't give a damn. They just place all files into the next available sector, regardless.

This makes those discs a little less "robust" than the originals but you can live with that.

 

[Ch3vr0n]

Pete then you need to take a look at the latest version of bdrebuilder. It uses an alternate fully compliant with the standard method to achieve 3d. This alternate method allows for shrinking and does not rely on ssif files

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[Pete]

Pete then you need to take a look at the latest version of bdrebuilder. It uses an alternate fully compliant with the standard method to achieve 3d. This alternate method allows for shrinking and does not rely on ssif files

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Personally, I'm not much interested in 3D, so I didn't look at it, but my guess is, BDRebuilder encodes the 3D into a single m2ts, which is certainly possible - though you'd lose the ability to watch the movie in 2D, then. It would be a 3D only disc.
Just guessing here, if anyone knows the precise workings of this, tell us.

 

[Ch3vr0n]

that is what he does, but according to jdobbs it does not result in the loss of 2D viewing, as the 3D is as you probably may know mainly enforced through java checks

 

[YaniD]

I believe Makemkv can create a 3D MVC MKV file with non-duplicated 3D data, but unfortunately the Oppo won't play it and only a few 3D media players will (but then you might as well get a media player as they can usually still play ISO).

So far I don't think anyone has come up with a way to copy a 3D movie that the Oppo will play without doubling the size, if ISO is not possible.

 

[tapidlittle]

I believe Makemkv can create a 3D MVC MKV file with non-duplicated 3D data, but unfortunately the Oppo won't play it and only a few 3D media players will (but then you might as well get a media player as they can usually still play ISO).

So far I don't think anyone has come up with a way to copy a 3D movie that the Oppo will play without doubling the size, if ISO is not possible.

Yes MakeMKV can create a 3D MVC MKV but the Oppo sees it as either a 2d or a blank image with sounds (had this problem with the Avengers).

What I don't understand is how a ISO (which contains files) doesnt double the data and can work and not a hard drive output (BDMV directly)?!? It's hard to understand this part for me!

 

[Ch3vr0n]

i already explained that. the ssif file(s) are virtual files, they dont really exist on a disc (or an ISO, which is an image of a disc). They are nothing but references to files in the main BDMV\STREAM folder. When you make an iso of a disc you copy it "1:1" aka as is, so virtual files stay virtual. It's only when you rip to a folder structure that those files become real and double the disc size. This does not affect playback from such a rip on a harddrive as it's still valid 3D content, but it does affect burn possibilities. When 3D discs are ripped to folder the final output is usually too big to burn back to a blank disc because those virtual "ssif" files have become real and doubled the file size amount

 

[Roycal]

Pete then you need to take a look at the latest version of bdrebuilder. It uses an alternate fully compliant with the standard method to achieve 3d. This alternate method allows for shrinking and does not rely on ssif files

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Have you verified this works? BDRebuilder normally re-encodes to Windows compatible files and folders which normally would explode the SSIF files.
If it explodes the files, it's not that useful and would defeat the whole purpose of shrinkage.

I'm thinking that a shell based virtual O/S might be handle the files without exploding them. Or has JDobbs already figured all that out?

BTW, is it that checkbox for "Process 3D Video sources as 2D for backup"? If I want to keep the 3D, should I should check that?

Edit: So far I don't see any difference in the stream structure no matter how that 3D button is checked. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the SSIF files were are a requirement for the blu ray 3D compatible players to play the "real" 3D.

 

[worknstiff]

@ Roycal; RE: Have you verified this works?
--BD Rebuilder v 0.47.04 re-encodes to files and folders without the the SSIF files. It just uses one .m2ts for the output and even though it is not recommended to blank some extras and features from a full backup, I have been doing so. I am playing it on my Oppo 93 and can hardly tell the difference with the original on a 65in Panasonic VT-25. I have done about a dozen disks and all of them came out perfect.

@ Roycal; Is it that checkbox for "Process 3D Video sources as 2D for backup"? If I want to keep the 3D, should I should check that?
No, that checkbox is just like it says, any 3D will be processed to playback in 2D. BD Rebuilder is "FED" a 3D Bluray by loading the original 3D iso. When it detects a 3D bluray it uses MVC & the FRIM Encoder to compress the files for backup to a BD25, and outputs to a Blu-ray folder or optional ISO file.

 

[Ch3vr0n]

@Roycal: i have verified it yes. It does work. the SSIF method is just one of the ways to get "Real 3D". The others are in-mux and out-mux. Inmux is the default which mixes the 2nd stream into the main stream and fixes the CLPI i think. All i know is it works and lets you shrink.

 

[YaniD]

I bow to the brilliance of jdobbs in finding an approved method of encoding 3D that doesn't double disc size when copied as files and may even permit stripping to movie-only.

May no longer need ISO support for Oppo.