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Discussion Amazon Prime and 'true' 24fps

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norliss

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Hi,

Recently got AnyStream Plus and have been downloading numerous films/ tv series via Prime. However, I've noticed that quite a number of them are actually 24fps (not 23.976) according to both MediaInfo Tool and within Plex and this causes a micro-stutter on a regular basis. I'm not sure if my Nvidia Shield actually supports true 24fps but I'd be fairly sure that my now-ancient Panasonic plasma TV (circa 2009) doesn't but I can't say I've ever noticed this issue before when streaming with either Netflix or Disney+ nor Amazon Prime before, although admittedly I haven't really watched a huge amount via the latter before now. I don't think I've ever encountered a Blu-ray disc with 24fps before.

I assume more modern TV sets support true 24fps but even so, I'm surprised they're doing this since 23.976fps has really been the defacto '24fps' standard until now.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
 
Interesting find. I know if your software/set top player is smart enough, it will play it just fine. Not sure about MP4 files, but as an MKV file it's pretty simple to edit the header and force 23.976 playback. Trying to remux as 23.976 though would not quite work because the sound itself needs to be altered as well to match the video rate, which requires an audio editor and remuxing the new audio file. I did that with a lot of import UK DVD rips to MKV when making them US compatible.
 
Can you try using MKVToolNix (free), just drag your file into it and hit "start multiplexing", it will just copy the contents into a new container, in this case .mkv.
I bring this up because you said your video stutters.
 
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Every item I've downloaded with AnyStream I've authored to Blu-ray. When authoring to Blu-ray I always need to account for the frame rate. When going back and forth between the Top Menu and movie or TV episode my home theater receiver and display will momentary lose sync if the frame rate changes. As such, to ensure a smooth transition I always encode the menu background used for the Top Menu at the same frame rate as the feature presentation. That being said, most of the content I download with AnyStream are TV episodes via Prime. I noticed this same thing right away, the 24fps being used. I've found that TV episodes almost always are offered at 24fps. where movies are more likely to be offered at 23.976 fps though over the past few years I've seen more in the way of movie content being offered at 24fps. One's results may vary, but I've never had as much as a hiccup when playing any of the 24fps content I authored to Blu-ray. Playback has always been silky smooth per my Sony Blu-ray players, Onkyo home theater receiver, Pioneer Plasma and Runco front projector. Trust me. With rare exception I watch all my content projected at 150" diagonal. I have a very strong eye for detail. If all this 24fps content was skipping a beat I'd know. Again, one's results may vary. ;)
 
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I think Amazon changed their encoding pipeline and are re-encoding their content for a couple of years now. I have some movies that I downloaded in May 2021 that are 24fps. Aside from the framerate change, they are also removing black bars. Movies and TV shows that are truly 23.976fps will be encoded at 24fps (and also 30fps for 29.970 content). In the 24fps version you will see a duplicate frame starting at 501 and then 1502, 2503, 3504, 4505, and so on until the end. I'm not sure if this is the "micro-stutter" you refer to but the only way to remove these duplicate frames are by re-encoding. Simply changing the framerate will still have those duplicates. Most people probably won't notice that one duplicate frame every 41 seconds but I'm sure there are some that are more sensitive. The good thing is that at least the duplicate cadence is consistent for both 24 and 30fps.

One thing to note is that Amazon leaves the framerate as is for channels that have intros that are not part of the movie/show. For example Cinemax or MGM+ have a 10 second intro with their logo and the film rating.
 
Thanks for your replies. I doubt my old TV handles proper 24fps but then if the files contain duplicate frames at regular intervals, then surely there's a problem with them and the stutter would be there regardless? Why on earth would they have started to do this? In all honesty, I don't particularly want to go faffing around every time I download a file that is 24fps as that's just too much of a PITA. I know the masses are very unobservant but there must be a decent (albeit small) number of people that have noticed this little glitch each time the duplicate frame appears?
 
psig33 said:
I think Amazon changed their encoding pipeline and are re-encoding their content for a couple of years now. I have some movies that I downloaded in May 2021 that are 24fps. Aside from the framerate change, they are also removing black bars. Movies and TV shows that are truly 23.976fps will be encoded at 24fps (and also 30fps for 29.970 content). In the 24fps version you will see a duplicate frame starting at 501 and then 1502, 2503, 3504, 4505, and so on until the end. I'm not sure if this is the "micro-stutter" you refer to but the only way to remove these duplicate frames are by re-encoding. Simply changing the framerate will still have those duplicates. Most people probably won't notice that one duplicate frame every 41 seconds but I'm sure there are some that are more sensitive. The good thing is that at least the duplicate cadence is consistent for both 24 and 30fps.

One thing to note is that Amazon leaves the framerate as is for channels that have intros that are not part of the movie/show. For example Cinemax or MGM+ have a 10 second intro with their logo and the film rating.
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So far, the majority of my downloads have been films and at 24fps, with the occasional one at 23.976. I noticed that with the Creepshow series, the whole of the first season is 23.976, the following two seasons are 24fps and two of the specials are 24fps and 30fps respectively. This is a bit of a dog's breakfast.

Is this just the case with Amazon or have any of the other streaming services done a similar thing? I had a Netflix sub for over a decade but cancelled it a few months ago otherwise I'd try some out.
 
It probably is (dunno, I'm no dev) but to what end?
Will you not download it if the file is too big or the framerate does not meet your expectations?
 
cartman0208 said:
It probably is (dunno, I'm no dev) but to what end?
Will you not download it if the file is too big or the framerate does not meet your expectations?
Click to expand...
Further to my earlier post here I've been noticing a lot of 24fps stuff from Amazon Prime that seems to be 23.976fps material re-encoded using duplicate frames which has been somewhat irksome to me. In truth I'd rather avoid downloading them.
 
norliss said:
Thanks for your replies. I doubt my old TV handles proper 24fps but then if the files contain duplicate frames at regular intervals, then surely there's a problem with them and the stutter would be there regardless?
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I started noticing that in May, I was trying to download the HEVC version instead of H264 but some episodes and movies were in 24fps and some in 23.976 (the length and audio tracks stay the same only the video is modified). When the scene is slow you don't see anything but when it's a fast scene you see a micro stutter, so I kept the 23.976 version and it's why I don't sownload so much now on AP, several TV shows and movies are now in 24fps, they should have made a real 24fps with no duplicate frames instead and reencode the audio to get the same length.

I think it's just an Amazon thing, D+ and NF have also 24fps but I think it's the original fps.
 
cartman0208 said:
Will you not download it if the file is too big or the framerate does not meet your expectations?
Click to expand...
Yes, I redownload the HEVC version of my movies/TV shows, if the fps is 24fps I keep the old one in h264.
 
BCloud said:
When the scene is slow you don't see anything but when it's a fast scene you see a micro stutter
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what are you watching on? i see judder and stutter in scenes when camera slowly pans, especially when dark object in front or a light background. across the board. movies, tv series, 24fps, 23.976fps, 25fps, blurays, bluray rips/remuxes... the only way to reduce it is to crack up motion smoothness on my sony tv which in return causes artefacts in fast scenes (and cant use a mouse since it introduces tonne of lag). OR are you talking about other type of stutter? lol. like, literal skipping of the frames... ?
 
No, there are other programs for that, we just download movies.
 
I am going to add this thread to the other one that was started, please refrain from posting dual threads. One thread for one subject. Thank you.
 
RedFox 1 said:
No, there are other programs for that, we just download movies.
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But you can't tell that before you download it, can you? You also state the codec, the resolution and the audio configurations, so why not the frame rate?
 
zanetti said:
what are you watching on? i see judder and stutter in scenes when camera slowly pans [...]
Click to expand...
I should have been more specific about "slow", a camera that slowly pans isn't slow for me because all the screen is moving, I have in mind little areas like fixed background and people talking and don't move so much.

I encoded 2 or 3 episodes of shows to remove the duplicate frames but I don't like to do that, it's too long to reencode.
 
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