How to interpret te VSNYC onscreen display?/24P stuttering

[thrang]

Tried searching for this (and for a more general ReClock FAQ), but how am I supposed to interpret the VSYNC display/meter?

I'm using TMT3, and when I enable it, there are two small what bars on the left upper portion of the video window, separated by a gap, and a third small white line just to the right of this, with a little white square in the middle, and it rises and falls..

Where is supposed to fall, what does the movement up or down mean, and what do I do to "fix" it?

I'm dealing with intermittent 24p stuttering from BDMV folder playbacks, and am going a bit nuts trying to figure this out (once again). My card is an ATI 5670 running the 10.6 drivers (tried 10.7 and 10.8 with no difference). I'd like to bitstream, but I get more prolonged periods of stuttering every 20 or 30 minutes that way - Though better, I'm still getting more brief moments of stuttering using reclock and PCM out from TMT3 (3.0.1.185)

Reclock version is 1.8.7.1, set to WSAPI exclusive, 24 bit padded to 32, fast sinc interpolation, Time Stretching/when speeding up, and VSYNC is on, and played with a variety of the slider positions.

ReClock video settings are all default...

 

[Razoola]

The two lines on the far left is the target vsync position and the line that moves up and down is the calculated vsync position. reclock adjusts its timing so the moving line tries to stay in between the two lines on the left. The line that scrolls from left to right is for detecting tearing but it can also be used to see stuttering more easily if its a non panning video scene.

Stuttering can be caused by many things. If you are using windows vista/7 and have a dual monitor setup make sure you disable desktop composition while playing videos. Doing this alone can solve many stuttering issues. An easy way to do this is to right click your player icon and then go into the compatability options and disable it from there. Doing this will disable composition when the player starts and re enable it when its closed

 

[thrang]

The two lines on the far left is the target vsync position and the line that moves up and down is the calculated vsync position. reclock adjusts its timing so the moving line tries to stay in between the two lines on the left. The line that scrolls from left to right is for detecting tearing but it can also be used to see stuttering more easily if its a non panning video scene.

Stuttering can be caused by many things. If you are using windows vista/7 and have a dual monitor setup make sure you disable desktop composition while playing videos. Doing this alone can solve many stuttering issues. An easy way to do this is to right click your player icon and then go into the compatability options and disable it from there. Doing this will disable composition when the player starts and re enable it when its closed

Thanks - rarely am I between the two lines, often at the bottom or a little below - every once in a while it shoots way up (actually reappearing up from the bottom sometimes...)

What is the process to get it more stable? I've already followed most to of the Windows 7 performance optimization settings recommended on the web (Aero is disabled, Superfetch disabled, minimal start up apps, automatic updates off, etc...) No dual monitor setup, jest HDMI out to a Sony projector...I'll check the desktop composition setting for the app in particular, but I'm assuming the system-wide disablement would supercede this...

Thanks

 

[red5goahead]

thrang

You should try Media Portal final 1.1.0 and the last dshowhelper that still in develepment but work great with Reclock. You would not need of Reclock vsynch control because new evr control the vsynch automatically. it was born for that purpose to control dynamically the vSynch position.

 

[thrang]

thrang

You should try Media Portal final 1.1.0 and the last dshowhelper that still in develepment but work great with Reclock. You would not need of Reclock vsynch control because new evr control the vsynch automatically. it was born for that purpose to control dynamically the vSynch position.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not looking right now to completely change everything I'm using - just trying to get my current set up optimized.

 

[Razoola]

Thanks - rarely am I between the two lines, often at the bottom or a little below - every once in a while it shoots way up (actually reappearing up from the bottom sometimes...)

What is the process to get it more stable? I've already followed most to of the Windows 7 performance optimization settings recommended on the web (Aero is disabled, Superfetch disabled, minimal start up apps, automatic updates off, etc...) No dual monitor setup, jest HDMI out to a Sony projector...I'll check the desktop composition setting for the app in particular, but I'm assuming the system-wide disablement would supercede this...

Thanks

Alot has to do with the renderer. some renderers have their own vsync which can fight against reclocks. Whats inportmant to understand is the it does not matter if the vsync position is not between the 2 lines providing you don't get tearing.

The white line can jump rapidly from time to time between scene changes for example when the renderer has more work to do.

 

[Jong]

Whats inportmant to understand is the it does not matter if the vsync position is not between the 2 lines providing you don't get tearing.

The white line can jump rapidly from time to time between scene changes for example when the renderer has more work to do.

Part right, part wrong!

- It does not matter if the white line jumps when there are actual breaks in the video, but it should never jump wildly just because of scene change - it means your PC is seriously underpowered.

- it can drift just above and below the lines from time to time.

- But after start of playback and after any pause/skip it must ALWAYS move towards the target zone and then stay there all the way through playback. The odd drift to just outside is OK but it must then move rapidly back in again.

If Reclock is unable to force the marker into its target zone your renderer is not allowing Reclock to control vsync and having Reclock trying to control vsync when it cannot will DEFINITELY lead to periodic burst of judder as Reclock will continually run its clock either too fast or too slow to try to achieve control that is denied it.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell. Let's say your renderer forces the white line to the top of the frame (common) and you put the target zone near the top, it may look like reclock has control but it does not.

If you want to use reclock to control vsync, to be sure your renderer allows control, try moving the target zone around the frame during playback and be sure that the white marker follows it after a few seconds.

A few examples of what works and what does not:

- TMT only allows Reclock to control vsync IN DISC MODE i.e. where you load a real disc or mount a .iso to a virtual drive or open a BD folder or DVD AS A DISC. If you directly open a .m2ts or .vob you will play in FILE MODE and Reclock vsync control WILL NOT WORK. Same is true for .avi, .mkv or any other files played in TMT

- MPC-HC EVR CP and EVR sync renderers WILL work with Reclock vsync control in D3D exclusive mode (Fullscreen GUI support must be OFF) or with Aero ON if their own vsync methods are ALL turned OFF. VMR9 works in D3D exclusive mode only. Regular EVR renderer or VMR9 non-exclusive or EVR CP/EVR Sync other than as above will NOT work.

- MadVR is incompatible with Reclock vsync control (has its own).

 

[thrang]

A few examples of what works and what does not:

- TMT only allows Reclock to control vsync IN DISC MODE i.e. where you load a real disc or mount a .iso to a virtual drive or open a BD folder or DVD AS A DISC. If you directly open a .m2ts or .vob you will play in FILE MODE and Reclock vsync control WILL NOT WORK. Same is true for .avi, .mkv or any other files played in TMT

So when TMT3 opens a BDMV or a VIDEO_TS folder from my hard drive, is it as a disk or a file? I am using MyMovies to launch the TMT3 plug-in to play. When I rip with AnyDVD, I choose "Rip DVDVIDEO to Harddisk"

Thanks

 

[Jong]

First, I need to admit a little ignornace. I play DVDs from a folder but I mount my BDs from .iso, so I am not clear what command line is used to play BDs in TMT from a folder.

But, essentially, if you pass a direct path to the movie file, eg. .vob, .avi, .mkv, .m2ts, you are using file mode and Reclock vsync control cannot be used. If you open a DVD folder using the TMT3 UI, pass it a drive letter via command line, pass it "video-ts.ifo" (or the equivalent path for BDs) you are in disc mode and Reclock vsync can be used.

If you let me know what cammand line is sent to TMT in each case I could say for sure.

 

[soulkeeper]

Part right, part wrong!

- It does not matter if the white line jumps when there are actual breaks in the video, but it should never jump wildly just because of scene change - it means your PC is seriously underpowered.

- it can drift just above and below the lines from time to time.

- But after start of playback and after any pause/skip it must ALWAYS move towards the target zone and then stay there all the way through playback. The odd drift to just outside is OK but it must then move rapidly back in again.

If Reclock is unable to force the marker into its target zone your renderer is not allowing Reclock to control vsync and having Reclock trying to control vsync when it cannot will DEFINITELY lead to periodic burst of judder as Reclock will continually run its clock either too fast or too slow to try to achieve control that is denied it.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell. Let's say your renderer forces the white line to the top of the frame (common) and you put the target zone near the top, it may look like reclock has control but it does not.

If you want to use reclock to control vsync, to be sure your renderer allows control, try moving the target zone around the frame during playback and be sure that the white marker follows it after a few seconds.

A few examples of what works and what does not:

- TMT only allows Reclock to control vsync IN DISC MODE i.e. where you load a real disc or mount a .iso to a virtual drive or open a BD folder or DVD AS A DISC. If you directly open a .m2ts or .vob you will play in FILE MODE and Reclock vsync control WILL NOT WORK. Same is true for .avi, .mkv or any other files played in TMT

- MPC-HC EVR CP and EVR sync renderers WILL work with Reclock vsync control in D3D exclusive mode (Fullscreen GUI support must be OFF) or with Aero ON if their own vsync methods are ALL turned OFF. VMR9 works in D3D exclusive mode only. Regular EVR renderer or VMR9 non-exclusive or EVR CP/EVR Sync other than as above will NOT work.

- MadVR is incompatible with Reclock vsync control (has its own).

Excellent information!!:rock:
I think i'm really close to ultimate smooth playback with the help of reclock (with mpc-hc,evr-sync with vsync disabled,aero on)..
But one more question..
How can we be sure that the target zone of vsync (controlled with the slider on reclock configuration) is the perfect one?
Prior to reclock ,i used evr-sync with 1st vsync option checked (vsync video to display)..in the options i could specify the target zone with numerical values (13,5ms and 16,5ms for @60hz and @50hz respectively)...
But reclock has only the slider...

when i move the target zone via keyboard shortcuts during playback (vsync on screen) ,i can see the target zone moving and the marker follows in a few sec.....but how can i assure that the target zone is perfectly set?

PS evr-sync stats (ctr+j) in mpc-hc showing the target vsync doesn't seem to
change according to vsync changes made with the reclock shortcuts..(it shows 13,5ms,as specified in evr-sync options although i have all vsync options disabled..)

 

[Jong]

If you are using mpc-hc you might want to follow my "tutorial" with Kazuya that starts here and follows over several pages!

Reclock cannot change EVR Sync's "target", that is just the renderers own goal, which you have turned off, but it does move the green line which corresponds to the "Average Sync offset" in its OSD.

I typically try to ensure the "Average Sync offset" settles about 4ms below the top of the frame, i.e. 16.5ms @50Hz which has a 20ms frame time. Basically you want it as far away from the bottom as you can, to allow for scheduling glitches, but with enough room from the top that "random variability" does not cause problems. A minimum of 3-4ms seems to do it.

I have not tried @24fps though. In theory the same should apply, but you may need to experiment. You just want to be sure you have a nice gently oscilating green line and an almost perfectly flat red one.

If you are close to danger you will often start to see spikes appear on the red line before you get full sync glitches (big swings on the green and red lines). If you see any significant wobbles on the red line move the "Average Sync offset" a little.

 

[mariner8611]

So when TMT3 opens a BDMV or a VIDEO_TS folder from my hard drive, is it as a disk or a file? I am using MyMovies to launch the TMT3 plug-in to play. When I rip with AnyDVD, I choose "Rip DVDVIDEO to Harddisk"

Thanks

Disc mode.

 

[soulkeeper]

If you are using mpc-hc you might want to follow my "tutorial" with Kazuya that starts here and follows over several pages!

Reclock cannot change EVR Sync's "target", that is just the renderers own goal, which you have turned off, but it does move the green line which corresponds to the "Average Sync offset" in its OSD.

I typically try to ensure the "Average Sync offset" settles about 4ms below the top of the frame, i.e. 16.5ms @50Hz which has a 20ms frame time. Basically you want it as far away from the bottom as you can, to allow for scheduling glitches, but with enough room from the top that "random variability" does not cause problems. A minimum of 3-4ms seems to do it.

I have not tried @24fps though. In theory the same should apply, but you may need to experiment. You just want to be sure you have a nice gently oscilating green line and an almost perfectly flat red one.

If you are close to danger you will often start to see spikes appear on the red line before you get full sync glitches (big swings on the green and red lines). If you see any significant wobbles on the red line move the "Average Sync offset" a little.

@Jong :rock:
i've read all the pages from the point you linked me and i think i understood how the whole thing works..
evr's sync target option has no impact (even that it's shown on the osd) because i have all vsync options disabled..
varying reclock's vsync slider (with shortcuts during playback) should move the target zone position(vsync on screen) and the moving line should follow and be between the zone...also,if osd is enabled , i should see the green line moving until aver. sync offset value in osd is around 16,5ms for @50hz..

I'll experiment tomorrow when i'll be at home!

PS pressing second time ctr+j the osd is simplified but although the graph is still shown ..i can't see the green line..only the red one..is this ok?