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Expelled No Intelligence Allowed DVD

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Please, just because you don't understand it, does not make it false.
I don't understand most of Albert Einstein's work, but that does not make me think it's false.

while I do not have a degree in physics, I understand it enough to question some of the theories. I know the universe, or at least what we can observe, is expanding. Because it expands does not automatically equal that at some time in the past it must have started from an infinitely dense point. balloons expand when they are inflated but if you pop the balloon, it does not shrink back to nothing. The universe had a beginning, and its expanding that is clear but I don't think we can definitely prove how it began or how it will end. There are theories based on what we've observed but we can't see everything.

science shows me the genius of God at work. when looking at the painting don't forget about the painter.

This is going to be my last post here. thanks to the mods for their patience.
 
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This is going to be my post here. thanks to the mods for their patience.

I honestly don't care, so long as you folks are civil to one another (I don't want to get a lot of PMs about this thread).
 
vice versa

Without Evidence there is no science. The Moral Majority isn't either. There is no gravity bodies in space suck.
 
while I do not have a degree in physics, I understand it enough to question some of the theories. I know the universe, or at least what we can observe, is expanding. Because it expands does not automatically equal that at some time in the past it must have started from an infinitely dense point. balloons expand when they are inflated but if you pop the balloon, it does not shrink back to nothing. The universe had a beginning, and its expanding that is clear but I don't think we can definitely prove how it began or how it will end. There are theories based on what we've observed but we can't see everything.

science shows me the genius of God at work. when looking at the painting don't forget about the painter.

There are some wrong assumptions you're making about the Big Bang there, that science actually knows what happened. There are hypotheses, and inflation is a modification of the classical expanding universe theory, but it's very much not clear what actually happened at the "beginning" (maybe there even wasn't one). By the way, particles get created and destroyed from and to nothing all the time. That's one of the concepts behind which Stephen Hawking had his breakthrough black hole theory that catapulted him to fame in the 1970's (among the scientific community at least). And, as the great Richard Feynman said, "if you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics", referring to the utter weirdness of the, regardless, most accurate scientific theory there is (even more than G. Relativity, which can calculate the difference in time passing in a plane and on the surface of the earth -- time in the plane goes by slower).

But the thing is, not to derail too much from the subject of this thread (Expelled and ID), that do you know how the ID movement, and consequently and ultimately, the "Expelled" production, got started? As I pointed out before, it was just creationists (christian creationists) looking for better, more politically friendly PR. And the path is chock-full of dishonesty, from blatant lies, to organized mis- and dis-information campaigns. Give a look at Judge Jones's opinion at Kitzmiller v. Dover. And he's a religious conservative Republican appointed by Bush. You can just read the conclusion, but the whole document is light reading and very interesting, if these things interest you. Basically all major players in this "controversy" had a say in front of the court. One snippet about "irreducible complexity", which is the IDers' best shot at something remotely resembling "evidence" (which has been shot down many times already): [Emphasis mine]
[...]Although in Darwin’s Black Box, Professor Behe wrote that not only were there no natural explanations for the immune system at the time, but that natural explanations were impossible regarding its origin. (P-647 at 139; 2:26-27 (Miller)). However, Dr. Miller presented peer-reviewed studies refuting Professor Behe’s claim that the immune system was irreducibly complex. Between 1996 and 2002, various studies confirmed each element of the evolutionary hypothesis explaining the origin of the immune system. (2:31 (Miller)). In fact, on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty-eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not “good enough.”

And something from the conclusion (which starts on p. 136):
The breathtaking inanity of the Board’s decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources.

Even the Judge was not too kind to the IDers.

Now, how Ben Stein, a Jew, and presumably a religious one, got involved and shamelessly does this throughout the movie, speaks of his cynicism and opportunism:

Even those who buy the thesis that star Ben Stein puts forward—that creationists are being unfairly locked out of the scientific establishment—should be disappointed by how Expelled spends almost no time explaining the specifics of intelligent-design theory, or presenting well-researched data to establish it as a legitimate challenger to evolution science.
[...]Few moments in cinema in 2008 were as shameless and disgusting as the Expelled sequence where Stein solemnly visits a Nazi death camp and unsubtly links "survival of the fittest" theory to the Holocaust. Don't worry, Darwinists: If the "bad as Hitler" argument is the best that ID pushers can muster, you have nothing to worry about.

Note that that site has a bad review of Religulous as well, so you can't say it's a biased anti-religion site.

By the way, this is not about religion per se. It's about some organized creationists having a PR campaign to introduce "creation" into science classes. It's been going on for decades. That's how it all started, and that's still the goal. They've just realized that to do it, they have to undermine actual science, by PR.
 
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I agree that Slysoft is not to place to try to form a battle ground for the ID proponents.
I don't know if anyone here is an ID proponent, just maybe got caught by surprise by this "documentary".
However I must point out that as far as I understand it, the Theory of Evolution is actually better understood and supported by evidence, than the Theory of gravity. Why? Though both are equally supported by observations (animals change to counter alterations in their environment: Observed, A stone falls to the ground: Observed), we actually don't know exactly HOW gravity works (the hopes are high that the LHC can help us understand that one). In contrast Evolution is confirmed, and understood.
The most evidential observations for evolution, though, are the ones from molecular biology, not that the other ones aren't evidential, of course they are. Molecular biology only makes evolution that much stronger.

But gravity is also well understood by now. It wasn't for centuries after Newton, and that was Newton's dark secret, that he described it mathematically to an astonishing degree, but didn't quite understand why objects fall or planets orbit. Enter Einstein, the imaginative genius. General Relativity is not only a more accurate description of gravity, it also makes it understandable how it works (space-time bending). The LHC, by the way, is mostly meant to advance knowledge in quantum theories, a much-hyped quantum theory of gravity (joining QM and G. Relativity) included.

Is there a blue teapot floating around in space?
It is very unlikely, but it is not impossible. (Even NASA have a sense of humour).

I think there are thousands, even millions. They're orbiting the sun, on the surface of the earth! (I totally stole that joke from someone else. But if you got that from NASA, they totally stole it from Bertrand Russell!)
 
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Personally, I've always wondered how "science" can say that nothing exploded and caused the Big Bang. Which idea is easier to believe? Either way, the Big Bang happened. You believe that the universe was created from nothing by nothing, or you believe it was created by God. It is a matter of who/Whom you believe, period. And while I personally would love to debate the issue, I do not feel the SlySoft forum is the proper place as this subject cannot be proved, it is a matter of belief.

Just a couple of things. I'm not gonna debate your belief in God, but there are more options. Things, in fact, do come out of nothing. Particles appear and disappear all the time (check my post above). Secondly, nobody claims to know what happened in the big bang. The Big Bang is a theory of what happened a split-split-second after the "beginning". Thirdly, who says there was a beginning? There may have not been. There are possibilities where no god is needed.
 
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth". This is the sticking point. Neither side can get past that one statement. You have faith in one or the other. It's only faith guys either way.
 
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth". This is the sticking point. Neither side can get past that one statement. You have faith in one or the other. It's only faith guys either way.

Very True! Faith. Not science. I have no problem with ID (or religion) being taught in schools. As part of an optional curriculum on comparative religons. Anything provided it is not as science.
 
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth". This is the sticking point. Neither side can get past that one statement.
When you put it in context, that the person who wrote that didn't know about the sun being a star bigger than the earth, the earth orbiting it, the existence of other planets, stars, galaxies. Not to say about germs, atoms, gravity, a spherical earth... they hadn't even met some other human "races" for crying out lout. And yes, they didn't know about evolution either. When you consider that the person who wrote that, and you consider what all the other persons (a.k.a. human beings, a.k.a 98% chimps) wrote about their countless other religions with pretty much the same kind of astounding ignorance for the times (and who can blame them) can you still say that you can't get past that statement?

Who made that statement? The only way that you can believe it is if you do believe God herself said it. But then the issue becomes not if God created "heavens and earth". It becomes whether you believe those are God's words.

You have faith in one or the other. It's only faith guys either way.

There is no either or. You consider Genesis, but you forget all other religions. Are they on a par with scientific knowledge? Only if you believe that your car, cellphone, TV, satellite service, medicine, and the computer where you typed this in could work with magic as much as they could work by the way of discovered scientific principles.
 
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There is no either or. You consider Genesis, but you forget all other religions. Are they on a par with scientific knowledge? Only if you believe that your car, cellphone, TV, satellite service, medicine, and the computer where you typed this in could work with magic as much as they could work by the way of discovered scientific principles.

The choice is ID or evolution and not every other philosophy known to man.
 
Don't they all tout either ID or evloution of some type or another. I think the choice is all enclusive.
 
OK, so it comes full circle! Either believe in religion or science. But please don't mix them. The whole ID thing actually goes further, they want to introduce religion in science classes. It's not about what people believe. It's about trying to subvert public education.

Also, if you weren't paying attention (all these years, not just in this thread), "Intelligent Design" has its roots in christian creationism. They just changed the name (ironically) so they could fit into the not-religion-but-science classes. It's a PR trojan horse move, and very lame at that. No actual scientists have fallen for it.
 
Don't be so anti-Christian that you read too much into Intelligent Design. The intelligence could be little green men from the other side of the galaxy.
 
Don't be so anti-Christian that you read too much into Intelligent Design. The intelligence could be little green men from the other side of the galaxy.

That's not the reason I.D. was developed. It was developed specifically as a creationist subterfuge: "The idea was developed by a group of American creationists who reformulated their argument in the creation-evolution controversy to circumvent court rulings that prohibit the teaching of creationism as science."

And saying so is not being anti-Christian: saying so is being against "bearing false witness".

-brendan
 
Actually it came about because a lot of scientists believe that if Darwin had the tools available to him that we do he would not have come to the macro evolution conclusion. We all believe in micro evolution or we can’t believe in breeding dogs or cattle or even white rabbits with pink eyes. But to believe that one species becomes another over time and under the influence of environment takes a giant leap of faith, at least as much as creationism.
 
Actually it came about because a lot of scientists believe that if Darwin had the tools available to him that we do he would not have come to the macro evolution conclusion. We all believe in micro evolution or we can’t believe in breeding dogs or cattle or even white rabbits with pink eyes. But to believe that one species becomes another over time and under the influence of environment takes a giant leap of faith, at least as much as creationism.

That statement shows a lack of understanding of what evolution is and how it works. Speciation exists, has has been reproduced in laboratory models.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VC1fEvidenceSpeciation.shtml
 
That article supports my point exactly. That is what Darwin saw on the various islands, variation within. MY lack of understanding prevents a meaningful dialogue I'm out.


I had ancestors that swung from trees; they were horse thieves in Arkansas.
 
Just to clarify, I'm not making it an attack on religion, not even on christianity. Of course private schools can teach the religion they want. I'm all for public schools teaching ALL religions. But don't teach them as if it were science, cause they're not. As long as you don't have a falsifiable hypothesis of how something might work, then you don't have science. I think even some religious people would be offended if you pretended to understand god. (I don't agree with them, but there are religious opponents of ID too. Ken Miller being one of the champions, and one of the science heroes, as I said before).

ID has a very specific and well known history, with known players, and known tactics. The fact that they changed their name to "Intelligent Design proponents" from "creationists" is the very same reason you're now defending them. It's just PR. Read the links I provided. Read the hilarious "cdesign proponentsists" part at least.
 
Also, if you weren't paying attention (all these years, not just in this thread), "Intelligent Design" has its roots in christian creationism. They just changed the name (ironically) so they could fit into the not-religion-but-science classes. It's a PR trojan horse move, and very lame at that. No actual scientists have fallen for it.

Yes, it has it's roots there... but what you fail to note is that it backfired on them. It deviated from plan as more people picked up the ball and ran.
ID as it's NOW defined has such a broad range of possibilities so as to be offensive to Christian Creationists. It was a PR move - but it's since got a life of it's own - so to speak. :)

-W
 
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