Exactly what is ReClock?

[TubeBar]

Though it should be noted not all PAL DVDs have sped up audio. I have a few that were straight NTSC conversions w/ frame blending interlaced video. I even have a few newer ones (they are Japanese Anime PAL releases) that are progressive 25fps using some type of frame blending as they run identical to the NTSC versions. Neither of those are running any faster. Some PAL movies are sped up but the pitch is preserved so playing it back at 24 would result in a lower pitch.

 

[markfilipak]

Hey TubeBar!

Though it should be noted not all PAL DVDs have sped up audio.

That's correct. One such region B, 'PAL' DVD is 'HILARY and JACKIE' [1998] AEN 6867449002095 [2007] (i.e., H&J). H&J was made from 24fps cinema, same as the 'NTSC'-soft versions, but it is not 'PAL'-fast. It is not Euro telecined via 13-12-13-12 pull-down, either. Every frame is combed! as though it was PAL TV. I don't know how they did it. Why they did it is obvious: J&C has a lot of music -- the film is about the cellist Jacqualine Du Pre -- and they needed the music to be right (i.e., not 72-cents sharp), so they found a way to put 24fps into 25fps while preserving the running time. Euro telecine would have done that, but it would have had 13 'progressive' frames followed by 12 combed frames, and so on -- Granted: Euro telecine is awful. But this disc has every frame combed(?)

BTW, 100-cents is from C to C# for example. So 72-cents sharp takes C 72% of the way to C#. That's way too much for musicians to tolerate.

I have a few that were straight NTSC conversions w/ frame blending interlaced video.

I assume you refer to 30/1.001fps telecine (what I call 'NTSC'-hard) with 2-3-2-3 (or 3-2-3-2) pull-down.

I even have a few newer ones (they are Japanese Anime PAL releases) that are progressive 25fps using some type of frame blending as they run identical to the NTSC versions.

Well, if they were shot (or synthesized) in 25fps, progressive, then they would look just like the NTSC versions and with the same running time. After all, Japanese Anime is not cinema.

But you may be right about blending. After all, anime would be a lot easier to interpolate than actual analog film would be. Oh, I've done it with VapourSynth, but going from 24 to 25 would be quite difficult. (What I did with VapourSynth was 24 to 120 but edge artifacts sometimes ruined motion sequences that had strong vertical repetitions such as picket fences -- it is a well known hinderance.)

Neither of those are running any faster. Some PAL movies are sped up but the pitch is preserved so playing it back at 24 would result in a lower pitch.

Yes, the pitch is preserved (as is the case for H&J), and, for what it's worth, playing at 24fps would result in 72-cents flat, however, why every frame is combed is a mystery to me. That universal combing pretty much eliminates interpolation as the technique used in H&J, eh?

I have concluded that ReClock is simply to turn 'PAL'-fast into cinema. I've done that with ffmpeg for a long time simply by remuxing and resampling audio and subtitles.

I have some 'NTSC'-hard & -soft movies that I think may have originated as PAL. They have very strange 'telecine' that repeat some frames and comb some frames but with no pattern except that there is always an odd number of combed frames. I suspect that some tool analyzed frames and chose where to put the telecine to make the result as smooth as possible.

 

[markfilipak]

Well, now I really am super mystified. Let me tell you why.

Because I mention H&J above, I revisited it.

I was wrong. The 25fps 'PAL' version really is 'PAL'-fast. It really is 24fps cinema sped up to 25fps. I discovered that by comparing running times for my 2 'NTSC'-soft versions (24/1.001fps) and the 'PAL' version. That was really difficult because the 'NTSC' versions have a different opening tacked on and its PTSs are really screwed up. I was eventually able to determine their running times by parsing the key part of the IFO file.

The bottom line is: Every frame being combed is absolutely unexplainable. What would they have used as a source that, when sped up to 25fps would comb?

I give up trying.

BTW, I could not find a cellist in my town to tell me whether the 'PAL' version is 72-cents sharp, but it must be. The second bottom line is: This thread is getting way off topic.

 

[TubeBar]

That's correct. One such region B, 'PAL' DVD is 'HILARY and JACKIE' [1998] AEN 6867449002095 [2007] (i.e., H&J). H&J was made from 24fps cinema, same as the 'NTSC'-soft versions, but it is not 'PAL'-fast. It is not Euro telecined via 13-12-13-12 pull-down, either. Every frame is combed! as though it was PAL TV. I don't know how they did it. Why they did it is obvious: J&C has a lot of music -- the film is about the cellist Jacqualine Du Pre -- and they needed the music to be right (i.e., not 72-cents sharp), so they found a way to put 24fps into 25fps while preserving the running time. Euro telecine would have done that, but it would have had 13 'progressive' frames followed by 12 combed frames, and so on -- Granted: Euro telecine is awful. But this disc has every frame combed(?)

BTW, 100-cents is from C to C# for example. So 72-cents sharp takes C 72% of the way to C#. That's way too much for musicians to tolerate.

You lost me with 13-12-13-12 pull-down and combing. I know the basics what a pulldown is because NTSC uses it all the time it really sucks. I would rather deal w/ PAL anyday as better quality as in higher res and better colors and no judder.

I assume you refer to 30/1.001fps telecine (what I call 'NTSC'-hard) with 2-3-2-3 (or 3-2-3-2) pull-down.

That I am not sure of and to this day I can't properly deinterlace them w/ ffmpeg, I have tried. MediaiNfo will just say PAL and 25fps. They are a mess. I have a few samples I can post if you want a look. Same running time as NTSC (maybe slightly off when I load them into Premeir pro) but almost dead on. Maybe the PAL is running at 24fps? When I look at the interlaced frames there sometimes seems to be a pull down and others it's messy blended together frames. I am not even sure what the proper deinterlace fps is? I tried 25fps and 23.976 in ffmpeg. Not sure if I even tried 24.

Well, if they were shot (or synthesized) in 25fps, progressive, then they would look just like the NTSC versions and with the same running time. After all, Japanese Anime is not cinema.

But you may be right about blending. After all, anime would be a lot easier to interpolate than actual analog film would be. Oh, I've done it with VapourSynth, but going from 24 to 25 would be quite difficult. (What I did with VapourSynth was 24 to 120 but edge artifacts sometimes ruined motion sequences that had strong vertical repetitions such as picket fences -- it is a well known hinderance.)

No these were shot on film:

VHD https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090248/

G13 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086148/

The NTSC blurays are 23.976. The DVD for VHD is done bad and obviously sourced from the analog tape masters for both the PAL and NTSC. NTSC is incorrectly deinterlaced to 29.97 Progressive, I don't know why so many studios do that? If it's 29.97 w/ pulldown then removing that it is 23.976 but I have seen so many improperly deinterlaced to 29.97 Progressive.

Yes, the pitch is preserved (as is the case for H&J), and, for what it's worth, playing at 24fps would result in 72-cents flat, however, why every frame is combed is a mystery to me. That universal combing pretty much eliminates interpolation as the technique used in H&J, eh?

I have concluded that ReClock is simply to turn 'PAL'-fast into cinema. I've done that with ffmpeg for a long time simply by remuxing and resampling audio and subtitles.

I have some 'NTSC'-hard & -soft movies that I think may have originated as PAL. They have very strange 'telecine' that repeat some frames and comb some frames but with no pattern except that there is always an odd number of combed frames. I suspect that some tool analyzed frames and chose where to put the telecine to make the result as smooth as possible.

Yes I have done that to, speed change is easy, same w/ converting subtitles and audio w/ correct pitch. As I said it's some of the PAL anime that is interlaced and from what I can tell converted from NTSC masters is really hard to fix. I am sure there's a way but got me.

Reclock is good for the PAL speed up but people need to be aware that there's no such standard that EVERY PAL release is always sped up w/ higher pitch. You'd be suprprised how many people have no idea what we are even talking about and if it's a PAL DVD would assume Reclock will fix it. ah well it's free

 

[TubeBar]

Well, now I really am super mystified. Let me tell you why.

Because I mention H&J above, I revisited it.

I was wrong. The 25fps 'PAL' version really is 'PAL'-fast. It really is 24fps cinema sped up to 25fps. I discovered that by comparing running times for my 2 'NTSC'-soft versions (24/1.001fps) and the 'PAL' version. That was really difficult because the 'NTSC' versions have a different opening tacked on and its PTSs are really screwed up. I was eventually able to determine their running times by parsing the key part of the IFO file.

The bottom line is: Every frame being combed is absolutely unexplainable. What would they have used as a source that, when sped up to 25fps would comb?

I give up trying.

BTW, I could not find a cellist in my town to tell me whether the 'PAL' version is 72-cents sharp, but it must be. The second bottom line is: This thread is getting way off topic.

The only thing I know about "combing" is the interlaced fields don't quite match and you get a combing artifact. The only way to remove that is mask it w/ a deinterlace blur. That's all I know. I think you are talking about something else? A different process?

 

[markfilipak]

You lost me with 13-12-13-12 pull-down and combing...

You seem a little confusted, my friend. Let me just put this down and if you want to discuss it further, okay, but not here. Send me a private message.

2-3 pull-down
Outputs a sequence of 2 combed frames followed by 3 "progressive" frames.

   ___frame 1
  /    ___frame 2 etc. (time flows left to right)
 /    /
1    1    1    1          ...'frame_rate_code'
Aa   Bb   Cc   Dd         ...4 frames @ 24/1.001fps <= original video
A a  B b  C c  D d        ...decode & take the fields apart

                          'NTSC'-soft telecine changes 2 tags, then stops there
1    1    0    0          ...'top_field_first'
0    1    0    1          ...'repeat_first_field'

                          'NTSC'-hard telecine actually changes the fields
A a  B b  B c  C d  D d   ...new fields
1    1    1    1    1     ...new 'top_field_first'
0    0    0    0    0     ...new 'repeat_first_field'
4    4    4    4    4     ...new 'frame_rate_code'
Aa   Bb   Bc   Cd   Dd    ...5 frames @ 30/1.001fps

If you detelecine, then you have the original video back! (I haven't used yadif in a long time.)

Euro pull-down
Outputs a sequence of 12 combed frames followed by 13 "progressive" frames.

Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee Ff Gg Hh Ii Jj Kk Ll Mm Nn Oo Pp Qq Rr Ss Tt Uu Vv Ww Xx      ...24 frames @ 24fps <= camera
1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0       ...'top_field_first'
0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1       ...'repeat_first_field'
Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee Ff Gg Hh Ii Jj Kk Ll Lm Mn No Op Pq Qr Rs St Tu Uv Vw Wx Xx   ...25 frames @ 25fps

If you detelecine, then you have the camera back! (I haven't used yadif in a long time.)

I have never seen 'PAL'-hard (or 'PAL'-soft) in the wild.

So, what is 'PAL'-fast? This is 'PAL'-fast:

Aa   ...every frame
3    ...new 'frame_rate_code'

That's it!

 

[TubeBar]

You seem a little confusted, my friend. Let me just put this down and if you want to discuss it further, okay, but not here. Send me a private message.

2-3 pull-down
Outputs a sequence of 2 combed frames followed by 3 "progressive" frames.

   ___frame 1
  /    ___frame 2 etc. (time flows left to right)
 /    /
1    1    1    1          ...'frame_rate_code'
Aa   Bb   Cc   Dd         ...4 frames @ 24/1.001fps <= original video
A a  B b  C c  D d        ...decode & take the fields apart

                          'NTSC'-soft telecine changes 2 tags, then stops there
1    1    0    0          ...'top_field_first'
0    1    0    1          ...'repeat_first_field'

                          'NTSC'-hard telecine actually changes the fields
A a  B b  B c  C d  D d   ...new fields
1    1    1    1    1     ...new 'top_field_first'
0    0    0    0    0     ...new 'repeat_first_field'
4    4    4    4    4     ...new 'frame_rate_code'
Aa   Bb   Bc   Cd   Dd    ...5 frames @ 30/1.001fps

If you detelecine, then you have the original video back! (I haven't used yadif in a long time.)

Euro pull-down
Outputs a sequence of 12 combed frames followed by 13 "progressive" frames.

Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee Ff Gg Hh Ii Jj Kk Ll Mm Nn Oo Pp Qq Rr Ss Tt Uu Vv Ww Xx      ...24 frames @ 24fps <= camera
1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0       ...'top_field_first'
0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1       ...'repeat_first_field'
Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee Ff Gg Hh Ii Jj Kk Ll Lm Mn No Op Pq Qr Rs St Tu Uv Vw Wx Xx   ...25 frames @ 25fps

If you detelecine, then you have the camera back! (I haven't used yadif in a long time.)

I have never seen 'PAL'-hard (or 'PAL'-soft) in the wild.

So, what is 'PAL'-fast? This is 'PAL'-fast:

Aa   ...every frame
3    ...new 'frame_rate_code'

That's it!

OK I think I understand now, thank you for the detailed explanation. I will send a PM later to discuss some of settings you use to deinterlace.

 

[markfilipak]

OK I think I understand now, thank you for the detailed explanation. I will send a PM later to discuss some of settings you use to deinterlace.

There ya go! Do that. You know, video is just mechanical. The smoothing filters are not needed except in the most dire circumstances.