Cinavia Protected Disks and Blu-ray Players (disks and players ONLY)

[iansilv]

As a question of business.... why would the media companies NOT put cinavia protection on their disks?

With the exception of bugs or problems with cinavia implementation where it should be working, the only reason I can think of why cinavia would not be implemented is customer backlash... but if it is on all disks, the backlash would not matter.

So, this is inevitable, correct?

 

[SamuriHL]

Because they'll have to pay for it. Verance isn't just giving this technology away. Like BD+, there's licensing to be paid for. AACS-LA members MUST implement detection per their license agreement. The studios, however, are not required to use it. Will they? Probably, once they see how effective it is.

 

[iansilv]

Because they'll have to pay for it. Verance isn't just giving this technology away. Like BD+, there's licensing to be paid for. AACS-LA members MUST implement detection per their license agreement. The studios, however, are not required to use it. Will they? Probably, once they see how effective it is.

OK... so until Slysoft can circumvent it, it truly is completely effective in destroying the ability to copy a Bluray disk... right?

 

[Rich86]

Sony firmware updates

Sony has just released a number of firmware updates on standalone players.
Some examples include BDP-S1000ES, BDP-S550, BDP-S350.
I would stay far away from these until it is confirmed that they have not hidden the cinavia rootkit in these like they did with the PS3 firmware update not that long ago.

 

[SamuriHL]

OK... so until Slysoft can circumvent it, it truly is completely effective in destroying the ability to copy a Bluray disk... right?

I wouldn't go that far. There are only a handful of devices that detect Cinavia. A competing product (that shall NOT be named in this thread) is able to get around issue by making BD recordable backups that are AACS protected. Cinavia sees that the backup is a trusted source and treats it like an original. Not a method of backup I'd trust long term, however, as I believe Cinavia has the ability to adapt much like BD+ does. If they decide, for example, to tweak the Cinavia detection so that if there's a Cinavia signal for commercial BD's found that they then check for AACS, and if that's found, they then check to see if it's a BD-ROM and not a recordable. In theory, the Cinavia signal for a commercial BD will never be found on a recordable disc, even if there is AACS on it. The point is, while that method works to get around the problem for now, long term, it's not a very good solution since the Cinavia signal is still embedded. Long term, you want a company like SlySoft to remove it. That's their stated goal. There is no ETA for when that'll happen. Cinavia in no way affects my ability to make a backup as I don't use Cinavia infected players to play them.

 

[SamuriHL]

Sony has just released a number of firmware updates on standalone players.
Some examples include BDP-S1000ES, BDP-S550, BDP-S350.
I would stay far away from these until it is confirmed that they have not hidden the cinavia rootkit in these like they did with the PS3 firmware update not that long ago.

Why do people insist on calling Cinavia a "rootkit"? I really hate that term. It seems that every mention of Sony REQUIRES the word "rootkit" even when one doesn't understand the actual term. Cinavia is a PROTECTION. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[theunof]

Why do people insist on calling Cinavia a "rootkit"? I really hate that term. It seems that every mention of Sony REQUIRES the word "rootkit" even when one doesn't understand the actual term. Cinavia is a PROTECTION. Nothing more, nothing less.

It is indeed annoying to see it called rootkit. Cinavia has two parts: a watermark in the content and a detector in the player. The first one is definitely not a rootkit. While the second could be argued to be a rootkit, because it was installed without user consent and "does evil", I'm not so sure if it's correct though, because the PS3 OS was never much user controlled, and you would not call rootkit anything they added, like F@H.

In theory, the Cinavia signal for a commercial BD will never be found on a recordable disc, even if there is AACS on it.

I appreciate that you nuanced your opinion on the matter, but what you say here it's still a supposition. What do you mean by "signal for a commercial BD". The payload says that it requires to come from a trusted source, it does not say it's "commercial" or anything else. At least not in the discs out there so far; ie. there is no reason atm to say that it should not be found on recordables.

Long term, you want a company like SlySoft to remove it. That's their stated goal. There is no ETA for when that'll happen.

Hehe, in other words you want the removal solution to come from Slysoft
I'm definitely interested in a removal solution and would like to see what Slysoft comes with. But I'm not bothered where it comes from, really.
So far both competing companies have stated they work on a removal solution. But there is no ETA and no progress shown what-so-ever.
I would not be too surprised if the solution comes from some student in a University (remember Geohot and PS3).

 

[SamuriHL]

It is indeed annoying to see it called rootkit. Cinavia has two parts: a watermark in the content and a detector in the player. The first one is definitely not a rootkit. While the second could be argued to be a rootkit, because it was installed without user consent and "does evil", I'm not so sure if it's correct though, because the PS3 OS was never much user controlled, and you would not call rootkit anything they added, like F@H.

Was it really installed without user consent, though? It was part of a firmware upgrade the user agreed to. There's NOT of "features" added to PS3 firmware that's not specifically spelled out. I can't agree that it's ALL considered a "rootkit". In any case, the term is overused and more often than not misapplied.

I appreciate that you nuanced your opinion on the matter, but what you say here it's still a supposition. What do you mean by "signal for a commercial BD". The payload says that it requires to come from a trusted source, it does not say it's "commercial" or anything else. At least not in the discs out there so far; ie. there is no reason atm to say that it should not be found on recordables.

Hmm, Cinavia.com disagrees with your assertion about error message 3. Or at least leaves it open to interpretation.

Explanation

The audio track of the video that you are playing contains a Cinavia code indicating that it is an unauthorized copy of professionally-produced content.

You often find "professionally-produced content" on recordable media? Again, it's open to interpretation. Currently, the IMPLEMENTATION simply looks for AACS on the media and decides that's ok. There's no TECHNICAL reason they couldn't change that. Whether they will or won't is mere speculation on both our parts. And I've said as much.

Hehe, in other words you want the removal solution to come from Slysoft
I'm definitely interested in a removal solution and would like to see what Slysoft comes with. But I'm not bothered where it comes from, really.
So far both competing companies have stated they work on a removal solution. But there is no ETA and no progress shown what-so-ever.
I would not be too surprised if the solution comes from some student in a University (remember Geohot and PS3).

Hmm, that's not what I said. I said "Long term you want a company LIKE SlySoft to remove it." The reason I chose them as an example is a pretty long list. We're on their forum, for one. They have a proven track record of dealing with protections. And, as far as I know, they are the only company that has a stated goal of REMOVING Cinavia. I actually don't care who removes it, as long as it's gone. I WOULD like it to be SlySoft, however. My reason for that isn't what you might think...it would mean that CloneBD is released and done.

 

[Rich86]

Why do people insist on calling Cinavia a "rootkit"? I really hate that term. It seems that every mention of Sony REQUIRES the word "rootkit" even when one doesn't understand the actual term. Cinavia is a PROTECTION. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please note that I referred to cinavia as a rootkit only in reference to the firmware updates that surreptitiously install it in our players. The corrupted audio track on an unprotected title is the trigger afterwards.
It is true that a user chooses to install the firmware that the cinavia code is hidden in, but the fact that it is hidden and unannounced seems to warrant calling it a rootkit - much like the Sony audio rootkit that was hidden in the cd player software that a cd title included and got installed unannounced on a customer's equipment.
Whatever anyone calls it or not - folks should probably think twice before installing firmware updates without knowing exactly and completely what is included under the covers. And it is unlikely Sony is going to be up front about any of this. That was the message I was advocating.

 

[SamuriHL]

Please note that I referred to cinavia as a rootkit only in reference to the firmware updates that surreptitiously install it in our players. The corrupted audio track on an unprotected title is the trigger afterwards.
It is true that a user chooses to install the firmware that the cinavia code is hidden in, but the fact that it is hidden and unannounced seems to warrant calling it a rootkit - much like the Sony audio rootkit that was hidden in the cd player software that a cd title included and got installed unannounced on a customer's equipment.
Whatever anyone calls it or not - folks should probably think twice before installing firmware updates without knowing exactly and completely what is included under the covers. And it is unlikely Sony is going to be up front about any of this. That was the message I was advocating.

I'll certainly agree that people with new players should be weary about new firmware updates. Certainly the "functionality" isn't going to be announced. So yes, that part is similar to a rootkit, but, still doesn't really meet the definition. Sneaky? Definitely. Underhanded? Probably a little. Caveat emptor...

 

[theunof]

You often find "professionally-produced content" on recordable media? Again, it's open to interpretation.

Maybe not often, but it's on Japanese BD tv recordings, and they have AACS for them for exactly the same reason.

Hmm, that's not what I said. I said "Long term you want a company LIKE SlySoft to remove it." The reason I chose them as an example is a pretty long list. We're on their forum, for one. They have a proven track record of dealing with protections. And, as far as I know, they are the only company that has a stated goal of REMOVING Cinavia. I actually don't care who removes it, as long as it's gone. I WOULD like it to be SlySoft, however. My reason for that isn't what you might think...it would mean that CloneBD is released and done.

I get you. Also it's not the only company with the stated goal to remove it, but I won't get into details here (see Cinavia threads elsewhere).
What I would like to know is if there is any progress with that... is it going anywhere? What is the quality of the removal going to be. I've seen Peer on another thread saying that the track is gonna be better than with Cinavia, quality wise somewhere between watermarked track and original and it would be interesting where does that coming from, you know.

 

[SamuriHL]

Maybe not often, but it's on Japanese BD tv recordings, and they have AACS for them for exactly the same reason.

But, how, exactly, is a recorder going to apply Cinavia? My point is, that the Cinavia signal is only found on commercially produced content at the moment. Adding Cinavia to the source (ala, the broadcast) doesn't seem possible to me, but, maybe.

I get you. Also it's not the only company with the stated goal to remove it, but I won't get into details here (see Cinavia threads elsewhere).
What I would like to know is if there is any progress with that... is it going anywhere? What is the quality of the removal going to be. I've seen Peer on another thread saying that the track is gonna be better than with Cinavia, quality wise somewhere between watermarked track and original and it would be interesting where does that coming from, you know.

That's fine if others have that same stated goal. I'm totally on board with anyone who wants to get rid of this crap from our audio streams. I just wasn't aware anyone else had that as a stated goal, that's all. Any progress on that is going to remain behind the scenes and it's very unlikely Peer or James will comment on any progress being made. Again, I point to SlySoft's track record on such things....by reputation alone if Peer is saying that getting rid of the embedded signal will clean up the audio, then, he must know something about it. I have to take what he says about it on faith until we see something released. We'll just have to wait until they cook something up to deal with this stupid protection. I think we all agree we want to see it eliminated.

 

[theunof]

But, how, exactly, is a recorder going to apply Cinavia? My point is, that the Cinavia signal is only found on commercially produced content at the moment. Adding Cinavia to the source (ala, the broadcast) doesn't seem possible to me, but, maybe.

You asked about professional content on recordables, not necessarily cinavia one. But also look at the Message 2 and 4, they are definitely about recorders

That's fine if others have that same stated goal. I'm totally on board with anyone who wants to get rid of this crap from our audio streams. I just wasn't aware anyone else had that as a stated goal, that's all. Any progress on that is going to remain behind the scenes and it's very unlikely Peer or James will comment on any progress being made. Again, I point to SlySoft's track record on such things....by reputation alone if Peer is saying that getting rid of the embedded signal will clean up the audio, then, he must know something about it. I have to take what he says about it on faith until we see something released. We'll just have to wait until they cook something up to deal with this stupid protection. I think we all agree we want to see it eliminated.

I wonder if it's just hold back because of the "trial" state of cinavia.

 

[SamuriHL]

You asked about professional content on recordables, not necessarily cinavia one. But also look at the Message 2 and 4, they are definitely about recorders

But that's a DIFFERENT embedded signal than what you'd find on a commercial blu-ray release. And therein lies my exact point. Yes, recordable media might be valid in certain instances, and as you're saying, they have different signals to handle that scenario. But for commercial blu-rays, there's no situation that I can think of where a Message 3 signal should be found on a recordable media. Currently the Cinavia implementation allows this, but, there's no reason they couldn't say "uh, no" going forward. Especially if they have different signals for recordable media anyway.

I wonder if it's just hold back because of the "trial" state of cinavia.

Possible. I really don't know.

 

[James]

Maybe not often, but it's on Japanese BD tv recordings, and they have AACS for them for exactly the same reason.

No, these are BDAV discs, not BDMV.

 

[dsguardian]

So has anyone been brave enough to see if the new firmware for the Sony BDP-S360 contains Cinavia? I have firmware 008, but it looks like they've updated to FW 011. Anyone know? Really don't want to "Cinavia-brick" my Blu Ray player if it's there.

 

[kilbowie54]

I can confirm that the Arcam BDP100 blu-ray player with the December 2010 firmware is not infected with Cinavia.
I backed up my Region B "The Other Guys" blu-ray disc (seamless branching disc; Cinavia logo on rear cover) to a BD25 (BD Rebuilder version 03703 used to create "movie only" shrink and DTS Master Audio retained) and the back-up played perfectly throughout.
Arcam have indicated that new firmware may be available shortly to address some disc playability issues. The file(s) will need to be installed by a dealer using a USB memory stick or via ethernet.

 

[steve00]

oppo cinavia latest

does the latest oppo firmware BDP9x-38-0126 (jan 31) have cinavia?
anybody test it yet?

 

[steve00]

burlesque

and Burlesque Blu-ray all regions has cinavia as seen on blu-ray.com

 

[slimm]

Just upgraded the firmware on my Sony BDP-S570 from MR4R708 to MR4R735. Watched my copy of The Losers and did not get a Cinavia warning. Have firmware MR4R752 on disc but not ready to try that one yet.