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blu-ray and hddvd *stalemate*

mike20021969

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source:http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pocketli/20071109/ttc-sony-ceo-blu-ray-hd-dvd-battle-is-at-57dbc65_2.html

Howard Stringer, the head of Sony Corp. in the States has said that Blu-ray is in a "stalemate" with the rival HD DVD format. "It's a difficult fight," said Stringer, speaking at a press event in New York.

Toshiba has made headlines in the States recently by selling off its entry-level HD DVD players for less than $200, unsurprisingly, seeing a massive sales spike.

"We were trying to win on the merits, which we were doing for a while, until Paramount changed sides," Stringer said, referring to the big news from this summer when Paramount and DreamWorks went HD DVD-only.

AP reports that Stringer apparently got a little wistful, saying that he believed there was an opportunity of uniting the two camps under one format before he became CEO, and he wishes he could travel back in time to make that happen.
 
I love this. I think he is doing his best to save face at this moment. I think he knows that another studio is going to drop bluray support, and I think he is trying to distance himself from the inevitable PR disaster that will come from losing this format war. Notice Toshiba has largely shutup, put its head down, and worked.
 
Oh- and it is no stalemate either- with HDDVD about to his the 500K sales mark in stand alone players, there is no stalemate. I highly doubt anybody will mess around with dual format players if they have their functional 99-299 hddvd players. Those people will not buy blurays.

Also- did anyone else here notice that MGM just yanked the following forthcoming blurays? :

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...M_Yanks_Ronin,_Red_Dawn_Blu-ray_Releases/1159

One of three things happened- BD+ got cracked and MGM decided to wait and see if the crack was permanent, BD+ got cracked and they realized that the only true advantage BLURAY could offer studios- unbreakable copy protection- is now gone, or they saw the sales figures of stand alone hddvd players and decided not to bother with bluray.

Either way, it is good for momentum!
 
iansilv: have you ever tried something called facts? MGM dropped two movies last week, before AnyDVD was able to copy the BD+ files, so obviously that drop had nothing to do with BD+ being cracked, which it is not, it's circumvented for the moment. Once you can completely remove it and backup your Blurays with your BR-burner, then i would say its cracked.
And regarding this statement "I think he knows that another studio is going to drop bluray support, and I think he is trying to distance himself from the inevitable PR disaster that will come from losing this format war." Where are the facts? Which studio is dropping Bluray? Where are the statements? If you look at the facts, Toshibas pricedrop helping HD DVD, Bluray selling a lot more movies, movie support for both, there is no way anyone can predict how it's all going to end if at all. So to predict an inevitable disaster is ridiculous. How about a litte more objectivity?
 
I really think this will go on and on and everyone will end up with dual format players just like DVD+-R.
 
If you guys want to debate, that's fine--but the forum rules clearly indicate no insults. So if I come back to this thread tonight or tomorrow and this thread has turned into a huge flame war, I will consider banning people.

Please be civil. You can argue and disagree, but I don't want to be reading insults and personal attacks.

Thank you. :policeman:
 
Since i actually prefer HD DVD myself i have no reason to flame and i prefer a discussion of flaming anyday.
 
iansilv: have you ever tried something called facts?

Yes.

MGM dropped two movies last week, before AnyDVD was able to copy the BD+ files, so obviously that drop had nothing to do with BD+ being cracked, which it is not, it's circumvented for the moment. Once you can completely remove it and backup your Blurays with your BR-burner, then i would say its cracked.

Anyone who has followed slysoft, anydvd, or the decryption movement, can see that if it is not completely cracked at this moment, it will be soon. There are people that read, post, and lurk in these forums who are pretty high up in the food chain when it comes to making decisions concerning whether or not a movie should be released on blu ray. I happen to know for a fact that this forum is read by some pretty serious decision makers. Anyone reading what has been going on here should have been able to see that BD+ was going to be cracked, so any decisions based on the copy protection that BD+ afforded them were going to be based on a temporary benefit.

I also think that people posting here are seriously discounting the market affect an uncrackable encryption scheme will have on things. If James and slysoft and everyone else in the world trying to crack BD+ threw up their hands and said, "dang- they are right- BD+ can't be broken," Bluray would win. the major movies by Spielberg and Lucas would insure it. An unbreakable, un-copyable encryption scheme is simply too seductive for these guys, especially with the level of quality these movies are presented in on these hidef disks.

And regarding this statement "I think he knows that another studio is going to drop bluray support, and I think he is trying to distance himself from the inevitable PR disaster that will come from losing this format war." Where are the facts? Which studio is dropping Bluray? Where are the statements? If you look at the facts, Toshibas pricedrop helping HD DVD, Bluray selling a lot more movies, movie support for both, there is no way anyone can predict how it's all going to end if at all. So to predict an inevitable disaster is ridiculous. How about a little more objectivity?

I started out with the statement "I think." That covers most of what you said.

If you listen to Howard's statement, it completely contradicts his usual arrogant swagger he has from other interviews. If Bluray loses this format war, it is on his watch. It will be the biggest PR nightmare he will have to deal with as a CEO. Forget the rootkit, forget the failed sony mp3 players, the proprietary encryption schemes, minidisk, PS3 shortage, and whatever else Sony has botched recently. Sony has repeatedly tried to create revenue streams for itself based around two things- control of a format and the creation of a group of companies around that format. If they lose, this will not only affect their current revenue streams and cause them to lose a lot of money over bluray, but it will haunt them with every other deal they try to do with other companies in the future- "OK Sony, is this going to be another bluray/betamax disaster?"

So- i am basing it on everything i have read about sony's CEO and the contradictions his statement show in the face of the new sales figures for Toshiba. I believe we are going in to the perfect storm for HDDVD to win.

As for being objective, I don't have to be. I think Bluray sucks because it has the most restrictive copying schemes. HDDVD is much closer to implementing mandatory managed copy, and quite frankly, I don't give a crap what the laws say- the original law concerning making a backup copy has yet to be overturned and put down by these new encryption practices. i want bluray dead so we can have one more-consumer-friendly format and have all movies on it with higher picture and sound quality.

So blob- there's your facts and objective attitude.
 
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and quite frankly, I don't give a crap what the laws say
Really, well then now you know why corporations don't give a crap about your rights.
 
i want bluray dead so we can have one more-consumer-friendly format and have all movies on it with higher picture and sound quality.

And I'd rather it stick around, at the very least so that I can have an updated format to burn discs that isn't a total disaster -- which HD-DVD is in that regard.

Good luck backing up your HD-DVDs with all those non-existent burners that they've already had alot of time to release. Blu-Ray's already up to the second generation 4X burners, and stripped of the DRM and region-coding associated with the home video standard, Blu-Ray is by far the more advanced format in terms of technology.

If only they'd take a few cues from HD-DVD (which it's entirely possible they could do in the future, as it's not only Sony behind this format) and make AACS optional, and implement a few more mandatory audio codecs they'd flatten HD-DVD in the space of a week. Optional AACS, as I'm sure the Blu-Ray Alliance (or whatever it's called) realizes won't hurt the big studios that demanded it... they'll always be able to afford to implement it. Making it mandatory only ensures that worth independant and smaller studios won't be able to release their titles on Blu-Ray.

The vehement hatred for Sony (which I'll admit, isn't my favourite company either) fueling all this ill-will for Blu-Ray is ridiculous. Whether or not it fails, it won't hurt Sony in the long run... they just have too much money. If they can afford to lose hundreds per PS3 units sold, and not make a profit on the bloody thing probably to date (though I'm not sure) then surely this won't hurt them either. If dislike for Sony is anyone's primary reason for want Blu-Ray to fail, that's a pretty hard position to have any respect for. Yeah, the additional copy protection schemes are annoying, but if Blu-Ray were to come out on top I'd expect they'd eventually make AACS optional (or else ensuring many worthy movies would never make it to their format) and BD+ was never mandatory to start with. The region coding is immaterial, IMO. The only other country I ever want to buy stuff from is Japan, and thankfully they were moved into North America's region for Blu-Ray. All the British stuff I like watching is inevitably released in Canada, anyway.
 
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There are people that read, post, and lurk in these forums who are pretty high up in the food chain when it comes to making decisions concerning whether or not a movie should be released on blu ray. I happen to know for a fact that this forum is read by some pretty serious decision makers.
I happen to know President Bush wears diapers. How do you know who reads what? Don't you see that it is pointless to try to argue with these kind of "facts"? Numbers are facts, statements are facts, claiming to know who reads what aren't facts, to me it's trying to show off and/or supporting a point that lacks facts.
And if there are any decision makers reading this forum, i would think they'd be from both sides, Bluray and HD DVD?
And there is a third way this could turn out: With the supposedly uncrackable protection cracked so easily some studios may decide not to release their precious movies in HD at all since they don't want high quality copies of their movies pirated. In which case we would all loose because many of our favourite movies would never be released on either format. If MGM dropped those movies because the protection isn't secure then they certainly wouldn't release them on HD DVD cause that is even less secure. And if Fox is so keen on protecting their movies that they waited with the releases until BD+ was ready they will never release them on a format that offers less protection, i think it would be more probable Fox stops releasing HD movies altogether.
 
I can't believe that no one has brought up price. If Sony and the BDA hadn't locked down all the major studios and every studio released HD movies in both formats, who do you think would win? HD DVD of course! Yes, it may not have the most storage or the highest bitrate but it gets the job done for high-quality 1080p and great DD+ 7.1 sound. HD DVD players are half the cost of Blu-Ray players and the premium price for Blu Ray just doesn't make sense for most folks.
 
Really, well then now you know why corporations don't give a crap about your rights.

Actually, I meant to go back and edit this part of my post, but the server timed out and I had to leave. What I meant here was that the original laws- the laws that state that consumers can make copies of media for backup purposes- have been trampled on by new laws that prevent people from breaking encryption schemes to make these legally entitled backups. However, these new laws have not been challenged in court. Therefore, it is not conclusive as to whether they would stand up, if someone was charged with making a backup when possessing that backup was not illegal, but the act of making it was.

But, regarding your post, corporations are in business to make money. The more times and ways they can charge me for the same thing, the better off they are. One way to do this is to restrict my ability to view the media I have paid the right to view. That might happen if a disk is damaged. Although i have purchased the disk, and have the right to view it, I cannot because the disk is damaged. Therefore, the backup becomes useful for me. Without the ability to make a backup, the likely hood I will damage my own disk and not be able to view it increases, and the chance I will rebuy the same media increases as well.

But yeah, you're right- corporations don't give a crap about my rights. Good post.
 
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I happen to know President Bush wears diapers.

FACTS BLOB FACTS! you said that you know this- where are the facts? I want pictures!


How do you know who reads what? Don't you see that it is pointless to try to argue with these kind of "facts"? Numbers are facts, statements are facts, claiming to know who reads what aren't facts, to me it's trying to show off and/or supporting a point that lacks facts.
And if there are any decision makers reading this forum, i would think they'd be from both sides, Bluray and HD DVD?
And there is a third way this could turn out: With the supposedly uncrackable protection cracked so easily some studios may decide not to release their precious movies in HD at all since they don't want high quality copies of their movies pirated. In which case we would all loose because many of our favourite movies would never be released on either format. If MGM dropped those movies because the protection isn't secure then they certainly wouldn't release them on HD DVD cause that is even less secure. And if Fox is so keen on protecting their movies that they waited with the releases until BD+ was ready they will never release them on a format that offers less protection, i think it would be more probable Fox stops releasing HD movies altogether.

I still don't understand all your ranting about FACTS. I started with "I THINK". I should have also put "IN MY OPINION" I guess.

IN MY OPINION, MGM pulled the releases because they decided that their money was better spent producing releases on bluray after they were sure that the extra money on disk production and costs of supporting two formats would be worth the extra protection BD+ would afford them. Maybe they are waiting, maybe they are reconsidering. But it seems like the right time to release a movie on bluray if you are going to do it- Christmas is almost here. They either have all of the knowledge we in the public have and are making a decision off of it, or they know something we don't and are making their decision off of that. Either way, no one has reported production problems, so pulling their bluray releases sounds like a business move to me.

Again, "I think" is being used heavily here. I do not know anyone at MGM. I am making a bit of educated speculation.

And- regarding not ever releasing them because of insecure copy protection- they need to sell their movies in the new format to make money. BD+ would have been an uncrackable ace in the hole for them, but now it looks like it will not be an advantage. The studios will release their movies even if BD+ is broken- don't worry about that.

Want some more evidence that leads me to my speculation about the background for Stringer's comments? Google him- read his past interviews since taking over Sony and read articles about him. he is not the type of man who says that Sony did something wrong.
 
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I can't believe that no one has brought up price. If Sony and the BDA hadn't locked down all the major studios and every studio released HD movies in both formats, who do you think would win? HD DVD of course! Yes, it may not have the most storage or the highest bitrate but it gets the job done for high-quality 1080p and great DD+ 7.1 sound. HD DVD players are half the cost of Blu-Ray players and the premium price for Blu Ray just doesn't make sense for most folks.

Not only that, but the disk production equipment is a fraction of the cost for the production of HDDVD versus bluray.
 
And I'd rather it stick around, at the very least so that I can have an updated format to burn discs that isn't a total disaster -- which HD-DVD is in that regard.

Good luck backing up your HD-DVDs with all those non-existent burners that they've already had alot of time to release. Blu-Ray's already up to the second generation 4X burners, and stripped of the DRM and region-coding associated with the home video standard, Blu-Ray is by far the more advanced format in terms of technology.

If only they'd take a few cues from HD-DVD (which it's entirely possible they could do in the future, as it's not only Sony behind this format) and make AACS optional, and implement a few more mandatory audio codecs they'd flatten HD-DVD in the space of a week. Optional AACS, as I'm sure the Blu-Ray Alliance (or whatever it's called) realizes won't hurt the big studios that demanded it... they'll always be able to afford to implement it. Making it mandatory only ensures that worth independant and smaller studios won't be able to release their titles on Blu-Ray.

The vehement hatred for Sony (which I'll admit, isn't my favourite company either) fueling all this ill-will for Blu-Ray is ridiculous. Whether or not it fails, it won't hurt Sony in the long run... they just have too much money. If they can afford to lose hundreds per PS3 units sold, and not make a profit on the bloody thing probably to date (though I'm not sure) then surely this won't hurt them either. If dislike for Sony is anyone's primary reason for want Blu-Ray to fail, that's a pretty hard position to have any respect for. Yeah, the additional copy protection schemes are annoying, but if Blu-Ray were to come out on top I'd expect they'd eventually make AACS optional (or else ensuring many worthy movies would never make it to their format) and BD+ was never mandatory to start with. The region coding is immaterial, IMO. The only other country I ever want to buy stuff from is Japan, and thankfully they were moved into North America's region for Blu-Ray. All the British stuff I like watching is inevitably released in Canada, anyway.

OK- that is a good point- hddvd burning drives for computers suck, that's true
 
Who in their right mind would spend the amount of money required to get a BR blank disc to backup when a NAS or external hard drive is so much cheaper and convenient to use ?

I know of no IT professional who sees BR as a useful backup media. Maybe if the blank discs were $2 or $4 maximum, but even then it would only be mostly useful for backing up movies.

By the time optical media like BR reaches a 100 GB capacity, holographic media and "burners" with over 1 TB of capacity per disc will not be much more expensive. So really, what's the point of BR blank media ?
 
I still don't understand all your ranting about FACTS. I started with "I THINK". I should have also put "IN MY OPINION" I guess.
Facts are the basis of any discussion, otherwise it's just guesswork. And when you start a sentence in a discussion with "I know for a fact..." then it's allowed to ask you to provide proof for this fact.
Whatever the Sony president said, he did not make any comments on the demise of Bluray or HD DVD, he talks about a stalemate. So anything you read into this is guesswork again.
All i tried to say is, you need to distinguish between facts and personal opinions, otherwise you have the typical useless fanboy "discussion".
I really don't think that any side will give up in the next few years, unless big studios like Warner decide for one or the other format both will be around for years.
 
Either way if HD- DVD is winning I am happy..lets hope it wins
 
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