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Blocked BD copy playback (Cinavia)

SamuriHL said:
I think you missed a big part of what we were discussing. :) And you jump on other people for not reading! :p J/K :) The point was that for DVD's, you can have either structural protection or Cinavia, but, not both because of the way the hash is generated for Cinavia checking. And it seems with the last several releases, they've decided structural protection is more useful.
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Okay, okay:eek:. It was mentioned today that there is a trade off between Cinavia and sturctural protection for DVDs. I just remember it being said a while back that Cinavia was found on some DVDs audio.
 
PrincipalityFusion said:
Okay, okay:eek:. It was mentioned today that there is a trade off between Cinavia and sturctural protection for DVDs. I just remember it being said a while back that Cinavia was found on some DVDs audio.
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I thought it was only fair to give you a little bit of a hard time. :) But yea, a lot of the latest DVD's aren't using Cinavia and instead are opting for structural protection. Which means the audio tracks are clean.
 
Roycal said:
Regarding spread spectrum, it's great for protecting communications equipment in real time. But it really is not significant if you simply want to cancel it out from a recording.
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I guess i'll wrap up by simply asking you to read thishttp://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/darkok/papers/SSW1.pdf and then tell me that spread spectrum is "not significant" if you want to just cancel it out.

The abstract says it all if you don't care to read the rest
We present several mechanisms that enable effective spreadspectrum
audio watermarking systems: prevention against detection
desynchronization, cepstrum filtering, and chess watermarks.
We have incorporated those techniques them into a system capable
of reliably detecting a watermark in an audio clip that has
been modified using a composition of attacks that degrade the
original audio characteristics well beyond the limit of acceptable
quality. Such attacks include: fluctuating scaling in the time and
frequency domains, compression, addition and multiplication of
noise, resampling, requantization, normalization, filtering, and
random cutting and pasting of signal samples.
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This was one of the resources i stumbled across as i tried to wrap my head around Cinavia. But i'll keep an open mind however if you can find something that would lend credence to signal cancellation as an effective means of defeating Cinavia because this paper seems to refute that soundly.
 
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I'm looking forward to you coming up with a useful solution ;). I'm sure the Slysoft guys will be similarly interested for CloneBD.
 
Roycal said:
It really doesnt matter how complicated the original signal is, if you have a recording of it, you can cancel it out.
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I agree, but you state the obvious problem: Without knowing what the exact Cinavia signal is, you can't cancel it out. If the signal has some random pattern to it, ....
 
James said:
Really? Is this confirmed?
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It was discussed back around when Cinavia first came out. I don't recall actually seeing any confirmation on it. I got one of those things for my dad for Xmas, so, I guess in a couple weeks I can find out first hand. :)
 
I just did some preliminary research. As of yet, there is *NO CINAVIA* detection on any of the WD players. The Cinavia rumor started because of this one post:

http://community.wdc.com/t5/WD-TV-Live-General-Discussions/Cinavia-DRM/m-p/32767

Basically someone not understanding what Cinavia is, thinking their playback issue was Cinavia related, and spread like wildfire ever since. And it seems the rumors persist to this day. :bang: See here:

http://wdtvhd.com/index.php?showtopic=18319&view=findpost&p=29717

And to my knowledge and what I can find out there, this situation hasn't changed to this day. Again, I'll be able to find out first hand in a few weeks, but, I'm not expecting any Cinavia related issues at all.
 
James said:
It would be extremely odd. No AACS = no Cinavia.


:rolleyes:
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Yup. The other part of the rumor is that apparently they use a sigmatel chipset that has cinavia detection built in, but is not active. Nonetheless I see no conclusive evidence out there that they have ever detected cinavia. It would be extremely strange for a media streamer with no aacsla license to add support for it.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
 
Roycal said:
Thanks for that great research! It wouldn't make sense for anyone to incorporate Cinavia that didn't have a specific reason (like Sony).

PS the real test is when he tries to stream a cinavia infected title to it over the home network. Will be very interested in how that goes (especially next spring) ;)
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Don't worry about that. I have a standard test file I made to test players with. It's about 400 megs and easily trips cinavia on my ps3. I'll test it on his new toy.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
 
SamuriHL said:
Yup. The other part of the rumor is that apparently they use a sigmatel chipset that has cinavia detection built in, but is not active.
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Sure. Why would a hardware manufacturer enable Cinavia if doesn't *have to* do it (like some AACS license agreement)?

Again: Hardware manufacturers don't have any interest in adding Cinavia. Unless they have a content creation department, of course. Like Sony.
 
James said:
Sure. Why would a hardware manufacturer enable Cinavia if doesn't *have to* do it (like some AACS license agreement)?

Again: Hardware manufacturers don't have any interest in adding Cinavia. Unless they have a content creation department, of course. Like Sony.
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Yup I completely agree. That's why I wasn't overly concerned about getting him one.

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I'm not really interested in sharing it simply because it's far more of a commercial movie than I think is "fair use". You simply need to take about 20+ minutes of a movie and re-encode it to mp4 or some other small format. Done. That's all I did with The Losers and now I have a 400 meg test file. If it were only a couple minutes I'd consider it, but, not over a third of the movie, no. :)
 
Yea, I went for the beginning. Doesn't matter though. You can cut out any 20+ minute section and it'll trip it. The 20 minute thing is simply because they give you a grace period after detection. Detection happens almost instantly. Then it waits for 20 minutes (or whatever the signal tells the player...as set by the studio) before it triggers audio muting and the message 3 display.
 
Roycal said:
I also agree. I was referring to the situation where you have two recordings, one with and one without Cinavia. This appears to be the case with some releases that have DVD's without Cinavia and Blu-rays that do have it. With that information, it doesn't matter how random the signal is.

I.E. If A= Audio and N=Noise and C= Cinavia watermark.

Then Audio 1 (BD) = A + C (Cinavia included and assumes almost no noise factor)
Audio 2 (DVD) = A + N (same audio as the BD without cinavia and some noise added).

After carefully normalizing both audio versions both in frequency/pitch and amplitude.

Then (STEP 1) [A+N] - [A+C] = [N-C] (blu-ray audio shifted 180 degrees and summed with DVD audio).

Now you have the watermark and some noise isolated in the [N-C] information.

After downloading [N-C] the end user could re-mix it back into the blu-ray audio
and erase the Cinavia signal.

(STEP 2) [A+C] + [N-C] = [A + N] (no Cinavia).

Sorry to repeat some of that but not sure people got it the first time.
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So thanks for repeating, but now I'm confused. It seems to me all you have done here is declare that BD + (DVD - BD) = DVD. A somewhat trivial piece of maths that hardly needs advanced knowledge of signal cancellation! You go through all that effort to, at best, recreate the original DVD audio and quite possibly add significant additional noise/error.

You might as well simply play the Blu-ray video with the DVD audio remuxed along side it. Which we have always known is possible, if we have access to a DVD with an identical cut of the movie.

Or are you saying some web site could host the (N-C) track for the user to download and add back to the Blu-ray track locally? Since the noise varies throughout it would not be a simply "factor" to be applied it would be en entire audio track in its own right that would be about the same size and subject to the same copyright as the original audio, so no more practical than a web site that attempted to host the DVD soundtracks of movies for download.

I accept you are also saying you could look at Cinavia "signals" from various movies and compare, but since there is a significant random element to these and since we have not isolated the signal only the signal altered by noise and compression artifacts from the DVD source it doesn't sound like anything much has been achieved. Hopefully you can enlighten me. :confused:
 
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Unfortunately I think there are a lot of problems with this approach:

1. I'm not convinced the N-C track will losslessly compress very well. It is mostly pseudo-random noise and about the worst thing to compress. It would be interesting to compare a FLAC N-C track to the original watermarked HD audio track.

2. In any case the server requirements for downloading whole audio tracks will be orders of magnitude higher than downloading a simple key. Not sure it is fundable. I'm also sure the copyright holders would have a problem with such a library of soundtracks the sole purpose of which is to circumvent DRM, although I guess it could go P2P. If so though, they might as well be uploading the DVD track - a lot simpler for sure.

3. Even if both the above prove not to be issues. It requires the DVD to have exactly the same master audio as the Blu-ray, which I'm not sure is that common. And someone has to have both discs, manually check the audio is the same and upload the N-C track. This is never going to be possible for all discs and I'm not sure who these people are that will have both discs and are prepared to do this task.

I'm also not convinced we will get much of an idea of the inaudible or otherwise nature of Cinavia from listening to the N-C track. By definition, this includes noise plus compression artefacts from the DVD source, both of which are known to be audible!

Still it'll be interesting to hear what you come up with.
 
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