AnyDVD HD 7.2.0.2 made Cinavia kick in during playback of legit disc

[Dr.Love]

Mainly for sharing this information if relevant:

While playing Django unchained BD from original disc (!) on my HTPC system (details see signature) Cinavia turned on after 20min playback.
When I disabled AnyDVD HD playback was fine.

Right before I started watching I installed the proposed update of TMT to version ~.196 followed by a reinstallation of AnyDVD HD.
I did not expect trouble. Allthough its Cinavia module manipulation may not work for the latest TMT update it reveals that TMT player is considering the AnyDVD interference as a data source that is not coming from Bluray Disc.
I always thought TMT does not see AnyDVD HD.

As for backup playback from harddisk I should revert back to previous version ~.172, because Cinavia detection will certainly be disabled then, right ?

 

[Adbear]

If you have AnyDVD HD running in the background then the default is to remove protection from any Blu-ray/DVD Video discs you put into the drive so if you are using a version of TMT that AnyDVD HD can't block Cinavia detection from then it will see the disc as decrypted and flag the Cinavia. TMT doesn't 'see' AnyDVD HD at all, what it sees is a decrypted disc in the drive

 

[ddjmagic]

AnyDVD HD is currently not able to prevent Cinavia detection on TMT 5.3.1.195.

If you have AnyDVD HD enabled with the original disc, the disc is no longer like the original (AnyDVD HD has removed protection) TMT can see that the disc does not have correct AACS protection and enforces Cinavia.

Basically an original disc with AnyDVD running is exactly the same as playing a backup from the hard disk.

Reverting back to 5.3.1.172 will fix the problem.

 

[Dr.Love]

Ah, now I understand what is happening.

And, just to summerize: the long term solution with Cinavia won't be frequent updates to fix the player related detection but an all-in-one playback solution slyce. Is that right?

 

[RBBrittain]

Ah, now I understand what is happening.

And, just to summerize: the long term solution with Cinavia won't be frequent updates to fix the player related detection but an all-in-one playback solution slyce. Is that right?

Slyce is a BD ripper, not an "all-in-one playback solution". Its "long-term solution with Cinavia" is to remove it during the rip process (which may or may not be part of the initial Slyce release--originally it wasn't, but it's now possible due to delays in the rest of Slyce). Cinavia removal cannot be done with original discs without ripping them; the whole reason AnyDVD HD will never remove Cinavia completely is it cannot be done on-the-fly.

For playback directly from original discs (i.e., without ripping), these are your only options to avoid Cinavia, and Slyce will NOT change this:

• Disable AnyDVD HD during playback (assuming your system is fully HDCP-compliant). If the software player can decrypt the original disc on its own, it won't silence after 20 minutes even if Cinavia is present.
• Use only software-player releases prior to Cinavia (i.e., TMT5 build 146) or that are supported by the AnyDVD HD Cinavia fix (i.e., TMT5 build 172 or TMT6 build 119). DO NOT update to the latest builds (i.e., TMT5 build 195 or TMT6 build 123), unless you can roll them back, until SlySoft updates its Cinavia fix to support them. (As Cinavia is now required by BDA licenses, it will not be removed in any later build or release of any licensed software player.)
• Use only BD software players not licensed by the BDA (XBMC, JRiver, MPC-HC, the future SlyPlayer, etc.). Since proper Cinavia detection requires access to AACS decryption (most unlicensed players play only "unencrypted" BDs, thus implicitly relying on AnyDVD HD, DVDFab or rippers for decryption) and is not required for actual BD playback (only BDA licensing rules demand it), it's safe to say those players will never detect Cinavia.

 

[Dr.Love]

Thank you for your expanded explanation. I admit I didn't recall correctly what is was all about with "Slyce".
Fine. So as far as Slyce isn't released, Cinavia won't annoy me as long as I turn AnyDVD HD off for original disc playback and use alternative players for playback of my backups.
So why everybody is moaning about Cinavia if you have a PC where you can choose your software. Thus playback of whichever source doesn't have to be affected at all.

 

[Jeff R 1]

So why everybody is moaning about Cinavia if you have a PC where you can choose your software. Thus playback of whichever source doesn't have to be affected at all.

Yes, that is the 64 dollar question...
Many people don't like running different programs that are supposed to do the same thing, eg TMT5(6) and XBMC, and the fact that many have already paid a 100 bucks for TMT only to find out the problem with Cinavia and ISO play back.

Some like using TMT from Windows Media Centre and you can't do this with XBMC.
I guess it's how fussy a person is.

XBMC is not with out it's problems either...

With me I don't use a computer anymore _ too much of a pain in the butt and the fact my video card didn't support DTS-HD sound, just DTS. So I had a choice to upgrade to a new computer or in my case a Dune Media Player.

Best money I've ever spent !

See this post over at ArcSoft why WMC is preferred.

http://www.arcsoft.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11392&title=why-use-media-center

 

[ddjmagic]

PC's aren't the only things affected by Cinavia, thousands of people use a PS3 or the newer standalone BD players to playback there media/backups.

Its currently not possible for those users to play backed up Cinavia content on those players.

The only option for them is to use the original disc or buy a different player.

So the moaning is not necessarily always coming from PC users.

As for PC users, alternative players like XBMC/JRiver/MPC are great and in some ways a lot better than commercial software, but they aren't perfect and have a few issues -

Forced subtitles - Some movie discs have an unmarked forced subtitle track which XBMC/JRiver/MPC will not select automatically, so halfway through the movie when the bad guys are talking Russian you have to pause and go through the subtitle tracks until you find the correct one.

Special features - If a user likes watching the special features on the disc, there is just not a viable option of watching these correctly without the menu in place - XBMC/JRiver/MPC can't do this.

3D Discs - Not possible to watch these discs in 3D on alternative players like XBMC/JRiver/MPC.

TV Shows - TV Shows discs with multiple episodes are again not viable without a menu system as you have no idea which episode is which.

So you can see why still some people might use commercial software like TMT/PowerDVD and currently if those users want to use the latest versions for those backed up Cinavia discs they can't - Hence the moaning

I'm a XBMC/MPC user myself and love it, but sometimes occasionally have to launch TMT from XBMC.

I personally would love more work to be put into a DirectShow Blu-ray navigator filter, so I can drop TMT for good, there are a couple of projects out there but unfortunately they don't get much help. That way Cinavia would never have to be an issue on a PC again.

 

[Jeff R 1]

I forgot all about that other stuff. :doh:

This is getting a little off topic here, but as far as I can guess based on my own experience with my Dune HD Smart H1, this can play 3D commercial Blu-ray's with full menu's, Mkv's and ISO's and there is no Cinavia in sight. Not only that, it appears to be region free as well.

http://store.duneplayer.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=27

How come Oppo was forced to drop Blu-ray ISO support and not Dune ?

The laws must be different in Taiwan and if so, I would have though that the models that are exported to Canada (for example) would be required to have no ISO support.

I find all of this a bit confusing.

 

[ddjmagic]

How come Oppo was forced to drop Blu-ray ISO support and not Dune ?

The laws must be different in Korea and if so, I would have though that the models that are exported to Canada (for example) would be required to have no ISO support.

I find all of this a bit confusing.

Not sure about the Dune players, they maybe don't have a Blu-ray license for the newer players, so they are not required to support Cinavia.

I know some of the older players had a Blu-ray license but that may of been before the Cinavia was a requirement.

As far as I know no player can get a Blu-ray license after Feb 2012 unless it supports Cinavia, not matter what country or laws.

 

[Manni]

Oppo supports full menus as it's primarily a bluray player, therefore has a full BD licence.
The new Dune models (like all media players) do not support full menus, so they have no BD License. That's why they don't have to implement Cinavia.

At the moment, the only way to get a 3D player with full menus is to use an HTPC with one of the licensed players (TMT, PDVD, etc).

 

[Jeff R 1]

Oppo supports full menus as it's primarily a bluray player, therefore has a full BD licence.
The new Dune models (like all media players) do not support full menus, so they have no BD License. That's why they don't have to implement Cinavia.

At the moment, the only way to get a 3D player with full menus is to use an HTPC with one of the licensed players (TMT, PDVD, etc).

I have this product:
http://dune-hd.com/eng/products/full_hd_media_players/16

All it does is play ISO and Mkv files (Blu-ray in my case). I create the ISO files using speed menu and with "Keep Original Menu" checked.

I can play 98% of the movies with speed menu and view the original Blu-ray menu's as such _ the Dune gives the player that option.

Even if I create an ISO with out speed menu, the player still gives me a "BD Light" or just "Play" option. Speed menu is not necessary to view full menu's, I use it as an option because sometimes I simply don't want to look at them.

The player would play full menu's in "Stand Up Guys" however (the other 2%) _ had to go to BD light.

There is a Blu-ray extension module that can play retail discs too, but it's been discontinued here on the North American continent and as far as I know it's still available in Europe.

http://dune-hd.com/eng/products/full_hd_media_players/17

I intend to contact Dune and ask them how they can build a player(s) that seemingly supports Blu-ray menu's and yet does not support Cinavia.

 

[ddjmagic]

I intend to contact Dune and ask them how they can build a player(s) that seemingly supports Blu-ray menu's and yet does not support Cinavia.

I think that particular model may have got its full Blu-ray license before the Cinavia requirements were in place.

Some of the newest models will not have the full menu option anymore, only the lite option.

 

[Manni]

I have this product:
http://dune-hd.com/eng/products/full_hd_media_players/16

All it does is play ISO and Mkv files (Blu-ray in my case). I create the ISO files using speed menu and with "Keep Original Menu" checked.

I can play 98% of the movies with speed menu and view the original Blu-ray menu's as such _ the Dune gives the player that option.

Even if I create an ISO with out speed menu, the player still gives me a "BD Light" or just "Play" option. Speed menu is not necessary to view full menu's, I use it as an option because sometimes I simply don't want to look at them.

The player would play full menu's in "Stand Up Guys" however (the other 2%) _ had to go to BD light.

There is a Blu-ray extension module that can play retail discs too, but it's been discontinued here on the North American continent and as far as I know it's still available in Europe.

http://dune-hd.com/eng/products/full_hd_media_players/17

I intend to contact Dune and ask them how they can build a player(s) that seemingly supports Blu-ray menu's and yet does not support Cinavia.

As DDJMagic said, this is an old model. It is not 3D compatible, and was produced/licensed before February 2012. Therefore supporting Cinavia was not part of the requirements at the time to obtain a license.

With media players, you either have old models, like yours or my Base 3.0, which can play full menus because they have a full license but are HDMI 1.3 and can't play 3D blurays, or you have more recent models (to stay with Dune, like the Base 3D) which are HDMI 1.4 and can play 3D blurays, but cannot play full menus (for 2D and 3D blurays) because they would be useless if they were supporting Cinavia, so they don't have a BD license. So pick your poison!

That's one of the main reasons why I moved to an HTPC despite the headaches and the instability. I wanted one player to play all my titles, 2D or 3D, with access to all the features. At this point, only an HTPC can do this.

Cinavia is not an issue if you stick to a version of TMT or PDVD supported by anydDVD HD, or to a pre-cinavia build, like TMT 5 build 146.

 

[Jeff R 1]

Mike over at Dune said: "The Base 3D DOES NOT have menu support, it plays BD ISO or folder through BD
lite. This will start the main movie if set to autostart."
So that agrees with what Manni said and makes sense. And Manni thanks for all the information, but I am not totally new to all of this, I'm "HaggisCat over at TMT.
I think your still running two versions of TMT 5 on your machine _ one with out Cinavia and one with _ Jason innocently (or even accidently) gave a hack on how to do this trying to help you trouble shoot some problems you were having, if I remember correctly.
I pointed that registry hack to another member and it was quietly removed.

There must allot of old stock at Dune then because there Smart Series claims all playback of commercial discs. Apparently many people knew about the Cinavia problem because all stock of the Dune HD Max is gone and it has been discontinued.
I tried to find a manufacturing date on mine, but there was none to be found _ at least not on the outside.
Thanks for all the replies.

 

[cybrsage]

Cinavia removal cannot be done with original discs without ripping them; the whole reason AnyDVD HD will never remove Cinavia completely is it cannot be done on-the-fly.

This cannot be the reason AnyDVD HD will never remove Cinavia completely. I rip my original discs with AnyDVD HD and then close AnyDVD HD. I do not keep it loaded into memory while playing my ripped BluRay (I have a non-Cinavia aware player).

For me, there is no on-the-fly processing of the BluRay.

 

[Ch3vr0n]

That is EXACTLY the reason why it cannot be done on-the-fly. You don't understand how it works. Cinavia is a signal EMBEDDED in the audio of the movie. It's not a protection like AACS that anydvd can crack. To remove the cinavia signal, the audio will have to be recoded in some way to remove it. Since anydvd is not a video nor an audio recoder it will NEVER be capable of removing the signal

 

[probep]

That's one of the main reasons why I moved to an HTPC despite the headaches and the instability. I wanted one player to play all my titles, 2D or 3D, with access to all the features. At this point, only an HTPC can do this.

Not only at all. Inexpensive Pioneer BD-players BDP-150 and BDP-450 (as well as BDP-140 and 440) with alternative (chineese) firmwares do support BD-J menu and do not detect Cinavia. They can playback 2D and 3D (including BD3D ISO) locally from USB-HDD and over SMB/NFS networks. They also support SACD (including SACD-R ISO), DVD-Audio, FLAC, etc.

Nevertheless I prefer to use HTPC.

 

[RBBrittain]

That is EXACTLY the reason why it cannot be done on-the-fly. You don't understand how it works. Cinavia is a signal EMBEDDED in the audio of the movie. It's not a protection like AACS that anydvd can crack. To remove the cinavia signal, the audio will have to be recoded in some way to remove it. Since anydvd is not a video nor an audio recoder it will NEVER be capable of removing the signal

+1,000.

This cannot be the reason AnyDVD HD will never remove Cinavia completely. I rip my original discs with AnyDVD HD and then close AnyDVD HD. I do not keep it loaded into memory while playing my ripped BluRay (I have a non-Cinavia aware player).

For me, there is no on-the-fly processing of the BluRay.

The part in bold is why you don't have a Cinavia problem; if your player detected Cinavia you would have a problem. In your case AnyDVD HD's on-the-fly processing occurs during the rip, whether you use its own rippers or a third-party ripper. For playback from original discs, however, on-the-fly processing occurs during playback; as Ch3vr0n says, it is simply impossible to perform all the required Cinavia removal steps on-the-fly. (Edit: The steps for Cinavia removal must be built into the rip process; that's why it'll be in Slyce, not AnyDVD HD.)

And are you just closing AnyDVD HD's ripper, or AnyDVD HD entirely? As long as you have the red fox in your system tray, AnyDVD HD itself is still active. For it to be deactivated, the fox must be either gray (right-click the fox & uncheck "Enable AnyDVD") or gone completely (right-click the fox & click "Exit").

 

[Steve55]

I dont think Cinavia can be removed as such, because the process by which it's added is non-reversible.

I think the best that can be done is to make it non-detectible, but I'm not even completely sure that you can be certain if you have removed Cinavia from a given audio, because just because it's not detected by a current Cinavia device, doesn't mean there's no Cinavia signal present.

The Dune player is anyway a very useful device indeed, as a player-in-a-box, regardless of the Cinavia thing.