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What Renderer to use with Reclock?

jmone

jmone

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Following from some discussion in the Reclock threat, what is the advantages / disadvantages of the various Video Renderers as I can choose on my Vista 32 Bit SP1 System:
  • Legacy
  • VMR7
  • VMR9
  • VMR9 Renderless Mode
  • EVR
  • Haali

Thanks
Nathan
 
i would also like to know what the best render is to use with reclock

and also what to use to change the default renderer that im useing..
 
The following is taken from Inmatrix Media Solutions

The Overlay Mixer Renderer:
Still using the Video Overlay technology, this renderer allows access to Hardware Color Controls (Hue/Saturation/Brightness/Contrast/Gamma) to cards that support color controls in hardware. Some cards may support only a subset of the color control features (only Brightness for example). This renderer also support proper Aspect Ratio controls for formats that require it (VCD/SVCD/DVD/Etc...).

The downside to this renderer is that it can't fall back to Pure-CPU. If the Video Overlay is inaccessible, it just won't work. In Media Mode Zoom Player will fall back to the Standard Overlay Renderer if this is the case. In DVD Mode, you'll get an error saying that the Video Decoder is unable to connect to the Overlay Mixer.

Lastly, this rendering technology is not very good at screen captures.


The Video Mixing Renderer 7 (VMR7)
This renderer is a hybrid of the Video Overlay technology and the Direct3D technology. It is only available on Windows XP and has been superseded by the VMR9. This is the rendering technology used by the Microsoft Media Player versions 7-10.

By default this rendering technology uses the Video Overlay. However, if it is inaccessible, it can use Direct3D to some degree.

The downside to this renderer is that it doesn't give access to Color Controls and it's not very good at screen captures.


The Video Mixing Renderer 9 (VMR9)
This is the latest technology in Video Rendering. It's completely based on Direct3D, requires DirectX-9 and recent hardware to operate. It can potentially give the best image quality (depends on the rendering mode and the display card hardware). VMR9 gives access to hardware color controls (if the card supports it) but not to Gamma controls as Microsoft didn't include support for it. VMR9 also has the best Aspect Ratio controls.

VMR9 supports three distinct rendering modes:


VMR9: Windowed
This is the most basic mode. It is available for backward compatibility. It does not give you access to Frame Capturing. One thing about this mode is that there was a bug in Windows XP-SP1 and DirectX-9b which made this mode the only mode in which DVD Menu navigation works. With Windows XP-SP2 and DirectX-9c the DVD Menu navigation bug was fixed.


VMR9: Windowless
This mode is slightly more advanced than the Windowed mode and is the best mode in which to conduct screen captures.


VMR9: Renderless
This is the most complex VMR9 rendering mode. It can work in Direct3D exclusive mode which means the entire machine is set to fullscreen and no background application are allowed access to the video hardware. Under Direct3D Exclusive Mode, less CPU is required to play videos and depending on the resolution of the video, playback may be smoother. The downside is that in Direct3D Exclusive mode, your computer is wholly dedicated to video playback and you won't be able to perform any other tasks.
Click to expand...

From the WinHEC2006's PowerPoint
Enhanced video render
New render supersedes OvMixer, VMR(7), and VMR9
Video mixing, output timing scheduling
Many enhancements
Composites to output – non-square pixel, colorspace support
Pluggable mixer and presenters
Pull based
Advanced presenter – synchronized with monitor
Automatically handles output mode
Tear free windowed output, DWM support, fullscreen support
Glitch resilience – MMCSS, deep queuing, timeline mapping
Application integration
EVR available in Media Foundation and DShow
Stand-alone Mixer MFT
Not dependent on DXVA decoding
Click to expand...

About the Haali Renderer:
1. Haali renderer is a DirectShow renderer, i.e. similar to VMR9.

2. Haali renderer by shaders, more accurately PS 2.0 compatible shaders. If your card doesnt' have those -- you can't use the renderer.

3. Haali renderer uses bicubic interpolation for resizing.

4. That resizing is done with shaders, implementation is different to casual mpc shader-based resizing in VMR9 mode.

5. Resizing in haali renderer is supposed to be faster than resizing with shaders in VMR9 mode due to limitations of implementation in the latter.
Click to expand...
 
As for which renderer to use, it is really up to you. There is no best renderer for all situations. However, here are some general guidelines. If speed is important, select the overlay mixer as it is the fastest. For general use, select one of the VMR9 options (either windowless or renderless). Personally, I like EVR because the image seems to be slightly sharper to my eyes while using it and it is less prone to tearing. I generally recommond against Haali's renderer because it doesn't work well with DVDs (macrovision failed errors).
 
I like Haali Renderer.

It's the only one which allows me to retain video levels 16-235.

And it has control over the colourspace, and respects the desktop Gamma control (I actually run a custom gamma curve with an app called VideoEqualizer).

Doesn't tear like EVR either.
 
Mark_A_W said:
I like Haali Renderer.

It's the only one which allows me to retain video levels 16-235.

And it has control over the colourspace, and respects the desktop Gamma control (I actually run a custom gamma curve with an app called VideoEqualizer).

Doesn't tear like EVR either.
Click to expand...

what program do you use to enable or disable what renderer to use

currently reclock says im useing EVR but i wanted to try out the hali renderer

how do i select what to use as default
 
Plug said:
what program do you use to enable or disable what renderer to use

currently reclock says im useing EVR but i wanted to try out the hali renderer

how do i select what to use as default
Click to expand...
What video player are you using?
 
Plug said:
WMP11 Vista X64 and PowerDVD 8 Ultra
Click to expand...
I might be wrong but as far as I know it, you can't change the video renderer in those two products. Maybe you could try working with the merits, but I'm not sure if that's confined to filters or if it works for renderers as well.

You could try media player classic homecinema to have a look at what Haali has to offer.
 
Mark_A_W said:
I like Haali Renderer.

It's the only one which allows me to retain video levels 16-235.

And it has control over the colourspace, and respects the desktop Gamma control (I actually run a custom gamma curve with an app called VideoEqualizer).

Doesn't tear like EVR either.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I like the recent colorspace logic that Haali has for HD:

"Added an automatic colorspace selection option to the renderer, it switches to BT.709 when video width is 1024 or more"

good stuff!
 
yeah I'm the one who asked Haali to add it :D

too bad its 601/709 coeffs are messed up, which renders Haali useless in YUY2.

nevertheless, Haali is great in RGB32 :

 
leeperry said:
yeah I'm the one who asked Haali to add it :D

too bad its 601/709 coeffs are messed up, which renders Haali useless in YUY2.

nevertheless, Haali is great in RGB32 :
Click to expand...

How do you configure Haali to use RGB32?
 
You do it in the video decoder.

In CoreAVC/FFdshow/Whatever, deselect the boxes in the output section for everything except RGB32. So untick YUY2, YV12, etc.

Then the video decoder does the colourspace conversion instead of the Renderer.

This does take more CPU (I get stutters).

However I can't see the issue leeperry is reporting, it's pretty subtle.
 
Mark_A_W said:
I can't see the issue leeperry is reporting, it's pretty subtle.
Click to expand...
you're losing native contrast, the conversion gamma is too high and all the coeffs are screwed up :

comparohrffbx9.png
 
Contrast is huge on a CRT projector with a custom gamma curve (100,000's to 1).

I did some A-Bing with YUY2 vs RGB32 and couldn't see any difference on video material.
 
Mark_A_W said:
Contrast is huge on a CRT projector with a custom gamma curve (100,000's to 1).

I did some A-Bing with YUY2 vs RGB32 and couldn't see any difference on video material.
Click to expand...
I only use CRT and DLP.
well killing native contrast is never a good idea.
besides if the xyz matrix coordinates are false, then your gamut is also messed up.

anyhow, I like to do gamut conversion to recover the original movie colors(SMPTE-C/EBU/HDTV).......so using YUY2 doesn't make any sense for me.

if your display is uncalibrated, YUY2 will look slightly worse than proper RGB32......prolly not worth the extra CPU load ;)
 
I'm A-B'ing RGB32 vs YUY2 right now on my 24" CRT monitor.

Maybe there's a difference, but it's pretty subtle.

Yes, it is calibrated (I own HCFR sensor and my mate has Colorfacts - which we calibrated the HCFR against).

And I have a ski jump custom gamma curve to suit my CRT projector.

I'm not particularly sensitive to colours (judder for me..).

You sure you don't have Ffdshow or CoreAVC expanding when in RGB and leaving the levels alone in RGB32? That's a noticeable difference.
 
Gees, that's subtle.

I can *just* see it when I have those images side by side.

Haali is rounding 1 sample the wrong way? Not perfect, but hardly earth shattering.
 
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