PDVD8 & TrueHD Audio

[hlkc]

Audio format: TrueHD, Digital EX, DTS-HD, DTS, DTS 96/24 decoding, DTS-ES (Discrete and Matrix)...
Output: SPDIF optical or coaxial or Analog..

Not sure, if it is marketing trick or what, but as a average consumer, it seems to me lately with the BD technology and PDVD8 launched, I see a lot of different audio stream formats. I am not follow all these formats closely and I hope someone here can give me some ideas.

First, I don't have SPDIF coaxial out from my MB; only SPDIF optical out. So what is the audio output port we need to use for so called "TrueHD" format? Below are my few questions:

1) What is the different between a "TrueHD" audio and DD and/or DTS SPDIF out from a HTPC?

2) Is what so called "TrueHD" audio can only pass thru analog but not in SPDIF coaxial or optical?

3) Is TrueHD audio stream playing from PDVD8 BD materials from my HTPC can only transfers from analog out but NOT SPDIF optical or coaxial?

4) In PDVD8, we can choose SPDIF or HDMI out from Audio section. Since I don't have HDMI out just a SPDIF audio signal out from my pre-amp and DVI video signal to my plasma, I assume I've no choice to choose SPDIF out. Is that means I am not taking a full advantage of what so called "TrueHD" audio? If so, is that mean if we need to do a full "TrueHD" audio, we have to have HDMI first to receiver and the HDMI/DVI out from receiver to monitor? Id don't think we can't do that. If so, how?

I just want the best audio and video out from my HTPC and the best I thought is DVI or HDMI out from my HTPC GC and SPDIF or optical out to my receiver.

5) Inside PDVD8 SPDIF output mode, we have 3 options, primary audio, AC3 and DTS down mixing. Which option should I use in order to take the full advantage of my audio setup? Correct me if I am wrong, it looks like if I choose for example DTS, somehow PDVD8 will modify the audio stream and make it to DTS to my pre-amp. But is it a good thing to do or should we just follow what the studio/manufacture supposes to offer, not touching or modifying the signal to DTS?

Thank you your feedback in advance.

 

[kdssrugby]

Ok, now that this is part of the Faq list, I ll summarize so that most people wont have to go reading the next couple pages:

Kdssrugby's guide to Hi-Def Audio

What is a lossless audio format?
A lossless track is an audio track that is bit for bit identical to the master recording with no compression or changes.

What are examples of lossless audio formats?
TrueHD, DTS HD MA and LPCM are all lossless audio codecs found on high definition discs.

Can I play a lossless format on my PC?
Yes and no. Total Media Theater (TMT) currently allows uncompressed audio to be sent via analog or hdmi using an Asus Xonar 1.3 card (which can be used with TMT 3 platinum). If you do not have this card then the audio signal is downgraded (from a lossless track to a lossy track which is not bit for bit identical to the original recording)

Currently only lossy tracks can be played on Powerdvd although a card from Auzentech, similar to the Asus card, will arrive in april of 2009 that will enable full audio pass through.

The reason for the down conversion of audio signals is due to a protocol called PaP (protected audio path) which functions in a similar manner to HDCP. Because PaP does not yet exist in Powerdvd, the audio is downmixed to the lossy core. This process downmixes the sound from a 24bit/96khz signal down to a 16/bit/48khz signal. Theoretically many people are unable to hear the difference between 24bit/96khz and 16/bit/48khz, but other have reported this is not the case.

What is a lossy format?
Dolby Digital and DTS are examples of a lossy format and are found on DVD and some blu-rays. A lossy soundtrack is created by compressing the original studio master so that it can fit on a smaller space (DVD's don t have the capacity to hold an uncompressed audio track along with video). To shrink the file size, many studios remove sound frequencies that theoretically cannot be heard by the average human ear. Basically it's like the coles notes of audio, just the essential sounds that you need to hear.

When will I be able to play a lossless audio format on my PC?
Cyberlink (who make Powerdvd) are working with various companies like Auzentech and ASUS to create a sound card that will allow PaP and allow for full resolution audio. Auzentech is creating a X-FI sound card which will allow HDMI 1.3 output but it's release has been pushed back often and it is unclear when it will be available for certain. If it does arrive it will only be compatible with Powerdvd 9 through an add on audio pack. ASUS makes the Xonar 1.3 sound card which will enable full HD audio via HDMI when using TMT 3 Platinum. Previously this was only capable in Asus' version of TMT which was patched independently. A slim version of the card will also be soon available for smaller PC's. A PCI-E card is required to use the cards.

Once I jump all the hoops, how do I play a HD audio track and what equipment will I need to play it?
(The following is speculation since we do not know how Cyberlink will implement hi def audio. I am assuming it will be similar in nature to set top players.)
To hear TrueHD and DTS-MA (once Auzentech and Asus release their cards) you will need a Receiver that is HDMI 1.3 compatible to bitstream the information to, and it must support the formats (i.e TrueHD and DTSHDMA). If you do not have a HDMI 1.3 receiver, then you can have the players decode the audio into PCM format which will give you almost the exact same sound and will work on HDMI 1.1 receivers. Using the Xonar 1.3 card, you can output the audio via HDMI or 7.1 analog (if you buy the daughter card) to your receiver using Total Media Theater.

Do I have to use HDMI? What about S/PDIF or Coaxial?
Yes.You cannot use S/PDIF or coaxial audio connectors due its limited bandiwidth. Since the information on a lossless audio format is so large, these cables cannot transmit the information required fast enough. If you use these connections, Powerdvd will downconvert the signal to its lossy core.

What signal should I send to the reciever?
If you have a HDMI 1.1 Reciever, you should send LPCM. If you have a receiver that is HDMI 1.3 and can decode the lossless formats you have 2 options. You may bitstream it or send it via LPCM. If you are planning on watching a Blu-ray disc with a PiP (Picture in Picture) then you will have to use PCM. In most cases you will not be able to use this feature with bitstream enabled (explained here:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...HD_avrs_1.html ) If you do not intend to use such features, then you can use bitstream.

 

[thedatman]

Audio format: TrueHD, Digital EX, DTS-HD, DTS, DTS 96/24 decoding, DTS-ES (Discrete and Matrix)...
Output: SPDIF optical or coaxial or Analog..

Not sure, if it is marketing trick or what, but as a average consumer, it seems to me lately with the BD technology and PDVD8 launched, I see a lot of different audio stream formats. I am not follow all these formats closely and I hope someone here can give me some ideas.

First, I don't have SPDIF coaxial out from my MB; only SPDIF optical out. So what is the audio output port we need to use for so called "TrueHD" format? Below are my few questions:

1) What is the different between a "TrueHD" audio and DD and/or DTS SPDIF out from a HTPC?

2) Is what so called "TrueHD" audio can only pass thru analog but not in SPDIF coaxial or optical?

3) Is TrueHD audio stream playing from PDVD8 BD materials from my HTPC can only transfers from analog out but NOT SPDIF optical or coaxial?

4) In PDVD8, we can choose SPDIF or HDMI out from Audio section. Since I don't have HDMI out just a SPDIF audio signal out from my pre-amp and DVI video signal to my plasma, I assume I've no choice to choose SPDIF out. Is that means I am not taking a full advantage of what so called "TrueHD" audio? If so, is that mean if we need to do a full "TrueHD" audio, we have to have HDMI first to receiver and the HDMI/DVI out from receiver to monitor? Id don't think we can't do that. If so, how?

I just want the best audio and video out from my HTPC and the best I thought is DVI or HDMI out from my HTPC GC and SPDIF or optical out to my receiver.

5) Inside PDVD8 SPDIF output mode, we have 3 options, primary audio, AC3 and DTS down mixing. Which option should I use in order to take the full advantage of my audio setup? Correct me if I am wrong, it looks like if I choose for example DTS, somehow PDVD8 will modify the audio stream and make it to DTS to my pre-amp. But is it a good thing to do or should we just follow what the studio/manufacture supposes to offer, not touching or modifying the signal to DTS?

Thank you your feedback in advance.

Hey I hope you get some answers,

I have similar questions but they have only been partially answered. I'm new at this and don't know nearly as much as other members.

You have a very nice audio system. I also have a good system over all not as nice as yours but for me it's as good as it gets. (I'm married now)

I have a Bryston SP1.7 processor, Canton ergo 120 and matching center channel cm-51. The bryston has no hdmi but has 5.1 analog input. I use an Echo Mona audio card it has 6 rca outs configured for 5.1 surround. It sounds great if it wasn't for all the hoop-la on these boards about down sampling. I would be happy.


I think in your situation if you have to use am optical (same as coax) you will always be limited to that bandwidth so if your Theta does not have an upgrade path. I don't know what your choices would be. Bryston has an upgrade path and it's not cheap but even their current model does not have hdmi. They are believers in waiting till the format is solid before they include it.

From what I read PDVD 8 even as of today does not send full audio output to the audiocard. In the near future they will encrypt it and send it to be decrypted by a audio card that is not let on the market. I like how my Mona sounds even at the current 16/48 it sounds better than anything I have heard as of yet.

is it possible that because I am remuxing and using 3319a that it's not being down sampled?

My other idea I posted before and got no replies. Can Anydvd offer an audio decrypting plugin? So once PDVD8 sends it to the audiocard anydvd decrypts it. That is if they can't develop a player.

 

[kdssrugby]

@datman, I don t think its possible for anydvdhd to decrypt the audio, at least at this point. Since powerdvd doesn t support the full resolution, slysoft can t unlock what isn t supported. Maybe once cyberlink enables full resolution audio in Powerdvd, Peer and James and the gang could find a work around. Though I do see some issues with that. The only way to have a PAP is by using HDMI 1.3, so if you re using analog, you would not likely have full res audio as an option, only by selecting HDMI from the pull down. So you would likely have to buy an HDMI 1.3 compatible card anyway, thus defeating the purpose.

 

[thedatman]

My other idea I posted before and got no replies. Can Anydvd offer an audio decrypting plugin? So once PDVD8 sends it to the audiocard anydvd decrypts it. That is if they can't develop a player.

I was speaking hypothetically.

So like it or not I should either be happy with what I have or be prepared to do some serious upgrading:bang:

 

[Jong]

@kdsrugby

It is not a bitrate issue. There is more than enough capacity in 1.1 for all current HD formats.

PAP does not require HDMI 1.3. Audio over 1.1 is perfectly secure. It is transporting TrueHD or DTS-HD over HDMI requires 1.3, 1.1 simply does not have the protocols to support them.

Multi-channel LPCM (at least as good, arguably, possibly, even better as there are no risks of decoder errors) can be transported securely over HDMI 1.1 and that of course requires a higher bitrate than the lossless compressed formats. The reason why this is not supported at the moment has nothing to do with the HDMI output interface. It is because there is no secure audio path internal to the PC that prevents the HD audio being intercepted and copied. Cyberlink are working with a number of companies to develop their own secure audio path protocol that will allow multi-channel LPCM to be passed to HDMI 1.1 devices or TrueHD/DTS-HD to 1.3 devices.

As mentioned in another thread though, passing the TrueHD/DTS-HD bitstream will prevent "advanced" disc features, like PiP commentary, from working. For those you would need the player (e.g. PDVD) to convert to LPCM before passing to the amp, as is recommended by both the new disc standards.

 

[kdssrugby]

Hello again Jong, I believe this is like the 4th thread on this topic we ve sparred on. I just realized why you keep going on about HDMI 1.1. I thought you meant on the PC side, not the reciever side. I ve been assuming that most people that would be taking advantage of Hi-def audio would have 1.3 recievers like the Onkyo 605. My bad.

I m not sure if I was clear or not, but I did mention that the lack of PAP was a software issue, though you still need a HDMI card. I even mentioned Auzentech working with Cyberlink on the issue (forgot about ASUS).

And thanks for the info about PiP, I must have missed that. Kind of a pain in the a$$.

 

[Jong]

Hi there. Yes, my 18 month old Denon 4306 (HDMI 1.1) supports multi-channel LPCM but cannot decode the new codecs. In theory this is no issue as player-side decoding is the preferred method for all HD (as mentioned ad-nauseam!).

Decoding lossless formats should be identical whether done by the player or the amp. They are lossless after all. It is like unpacking a zip file - all tools have to achieve the same result or software would not install etc.

The problem at the moment is that even if you were able to get multi-channel LPCM to an HDMI audio port (which you cannot) PDVD downsamples (as you mention). But it's all a little moot as you cannot pass multi-channel LPCM and neither can you pass TrueHD/DTS-HD bitstream! But in theory all these issues should go away once the PDVD secure/protected audio path is in place. At least the reason for all of them does; We will have to see about the implementation!

 

[hlkc]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ALL THE ANSWERS SO FAR!!!​

Now, after I read all the threads here, it seems to me that this TrueHD audio is not available today, right? In order for me to make sure I understand, let me ask few more questions and PLEASE DO Correct me if I am wrong.

1) It seems to me HDMI 1.3 protocol/cable is the ONLY way to transfer what so call "TrueHD" Audio from our HTPC to our receiver, right? If it is the case, after Google few mins, I don't see any HTPC GC or audio card that is HDMI 1.3 built in today. Is that means this "TrueHD" Audio is NOT available for HTPC users like us today?

2) What I confuse the most is if I understand correctly, since HDMI carries a lot of data inside therefore it can't be transfer/carry on. What I mean is we can only get HDMI signal from player to a integrated TV, monitor and speakers together, is the only way we can experience "TrueHD" audio today?

If it is the case, how we, HTPC users, can have HDMI 1.3 to HDMI audio signal to amp and another HDMI video signal to monitor? Or, we have to HDMI 1.3 to receiver and hope our receiver can continuous/carry on the video signal out to monitor? Is this the way for the future for the "TrueHD" audio happening to our HTPC users?

3) It seems to me, we can't do what so called "TrueHD" audio today until the following conditions met:

a) PDVD MUST secure/protected audio path is in place and not down sampling and send the audio path out to put receiver.
b) We need HDMI 1.3 card from HTPC and HDMI in receiver to do all these decoding.
c) Since PDVD doesn't support the full resolution therefore AnyDVDHD can't unlock what isn't supported. Once PDVD support AnyDVDHD needs to unlock the audio portion.

In any case, this seem to me this is ONE BIG SERIOUS wish list and upgrade to a lot of people, right? If I am not right, and if you are enjoying "TrueHD" audio today, can you please share your HTPC and receiver set up to me?

Many thanks again!

 

[roog]

IMHO, the best solution will be HDMI 1.3 audio. The first available way, that I know of, to do this will be an Auxentech X-Fi Prelude (available now), an Auzentech HDMI X-Tension soundcard (not yet available), and a HDMI 1.3 receiver (available now). You're looking at a minimum of 1000 USD, not including speakers, for this capability.

Hopefully Auzentech will come up with a way to extract the HDMI 1.3 audio from BD/HD discs and pass it unmolested to the receiver. Otherwise, your at the mercy of PowerDVD8 Ultra to supply the audio and they like to monkey around with the data stream before passing it along.

Just an off-the-wall idea I came up with, but if someone could figure out a way to supply the two additional 7.1 surround channels to a second S/PDIF output it would be great short term solution. You could play these channels using a low cost 2.1 channel receiver or amplifier.

 

[hlkc]

IMHO, the best solution will be HDMI 1.3 audio. The first available way, that I know of, to do this will be an Auxentech X-Fi Prelude (available now), an Auzentech HDMI X-Tension soundcard (not yet available), and a HDMI 1.3 receiver (available now). You're looking at a minimum of 1000 USD, not including speakers, for this capability.

Hopefully Auzentech will come up with a way to extract the HDMI 1.3 audio from BD/HD discs and pass it unmolested to the receiver. Otherwise, your at the mercy of PowerDVD8 Ultra to supply the audio and they like to monkey around with the data stream before passing it along.

Just an off-the-wall idea I came up with, but if someone could figure out a way to supply the two additional 7.1 surround channels to a second S/PDIF output it would be great short term solution. You could play these channels using a low cost 2.1 channel receiver or amplifier.

Hi roog,

So uxentech X-Fi Prelude (available now) or an Auzentech HDMI X-Tension soundcard can deliver HDMI 1.3 audio portion from HTPC to receiver? Also, in order to take full advantage of TureHD audio, we need a receiver that can do TrueHD like DD, DTS, right?

 

[Jong]

1) Is pretty much true. To pass TrueHD you need 1.3 and there is no solution right now that can pass it. However, the reason is more to do with software limitations (lack of an internal secure audio path) than the capabilities of some HDMI solutions. Even converting to analogue on the PC, still results in downmixing and probably always will.

2) I do not fully understand. But I think you are mistaken. You certainly can pass HDMI from one device to another eg. from player to amp and from amp to a TV and use the amp to decode the audio. It is certainly possible to play TrueHD and DTS-HD now using a stand-alone player connected to a suitable amp.

3)
a) true
b) not really true. It is perfectly possible to decode TrueHD in the player and pass LPCM to a suitable amp over HDMI 1.1 and the results should be identical, since unpacking a lossless format does not require any clever algorithms to re-create the sound. The player should simply pass the bits it unpacks.
c) AnyDVD is not really involved in this. Any solution I can think of that can playback the audio will be able to work with the original disc without AnyDVD. Ripping the disc is of course another matter.

 

[kdssrugby]

Hey HLKC.

1)HDMI is the only way you will get hi def audio, but as Jong mentioned, HDMI 1.1 will work. The difference is that LPCM decodes the stream with te HTPC whereas bitstreaming it will let the reciever decode the audio. Jong prefers to send the LPCM (decreased likelihood of decoding errors, and because his reciever is only HDMI 1.1) but if you have a reciever that can decode DTS HD MA or TrueHD, the only way those icons will light up is by bitsreaming it.

You are correct, there are no current products with HDMI 1.3, though they would be of no use until Powerdvd supports it.

2) You would not have to use the integrated speakers on your Tv. Here's what would happen once the software supports Hi res audio, and you have the hardware, is this (at least this is how Auzentech is approaching it): You would have a dvdi to hdmi cable running from your video card into the sound card. The sound card would have a 2nd HDMI port which would combine the video and the audio and send it to your reciever. From the reciever you would have another HDMI cable going to your TV. This method allows the audio and video to be synced together.

3) It seems like you have got it. The only thing I m unsure on is whether anydvd would be able to unlock the audio. The only reason for doing so would be to use analog, and I don t know if that will work. I ll PM peer and see if he can give me a quick yes or no answer.

Edit; dang, Jong beat me to it while I was writing.

 

[roog]

If I'm not mistaken, HDMI has to be 1.3 or better to handle TrueHD.

 

[hlkc]

This is getting somewhere, I hope?

After few mins research this device CAN separate HDMI 1.3 audio AND video. If it is true then all we need is just one of this unit and we can have TrueHD today? Of course we need a TrueHD receiver too. Also, it look like this unit can even send signal to receiver via SPDIF. What do you guys think?

 

[kdssrugby]

@roog: Its a bit convoluted but here's the reality. LPCM and TrueHD etc is the same. The difference is that TrueHD is packed in a file equivalent to a zip file. The reciever decodes it itself instead of powerdvd. So if you want the reciever to decode it, then yes, you need HDMI 1.3, if you want the player to decode then you ll only need 1.1. In both cases Powerdvd would need to support the full resolution audio.

@HLKC:
Kind of but not really. Yes it can separate the audio, but it looks like it can only send the audio over spdif or coaxial.As mentioned before, these cannot handle trueHD.

 

[roog]

@roog: Its a bit convoluted but here's the reality. LPCM and TrueHD etc is the same. The difference is that TrueHD is packed in a file equivalent to a zip file. The reciever decodes it itself instead of powerdvd. So if you want the reciever to decode it, then yes, you need HDMI 1.3, if you want the player to decode then you ll only need 1.1. In both cases Powerdvd would need to support the full resolution audio.

Thx, I want the receiver to decode.

 

[SamuriHL]

Thx, I want the receiver to decode.

I definitely don't. You loose too much functionality that way. While it's true that the sound quality between LPCM and bitstreaming should be equal, there's one small point that people forget. Profile 1.1 titles. If you're doing PiP, you need the streams to be mixed. Well, guess what, if you're bitstreaming, you can't mix them. The player needs to decode to LPCM, mix in the profile 1.1 PiP audio, and send the mixed stream to the receiver. I would prefer this to bitstreaming and letting the receiver decode it. Given what we've seen out of the receivers that can decode so far, I'm also not impressed. One of the Onkyo's I believe required a firmware update to fix a sound decoding problem. Yes, a receiver requiring a firmware update. No, I have NO idea how that process works, either. In any case, let the player deal with it. Much easier in the long run and you won't notice any difference in quality.

 

[hlkc]

@roog: Its a bit convoluted but here's the reality. LPCM and TrueHD etc is the same. The difference is that TrueHD is packed in a file equivalent to a zip file. The reciever decodes it itself instead of powerdvd. So if you want the reciever to decode it, then yes, you need HDMI 1.3, if you want the player to decode then you ll only need 1.1. In both cases Powerdvd would need to support the full resolution audio.

kdssrugby,

So what if we want the player, PDVD, to decode? what format will I able to stream to receiver? In any cases, we still need "TrueHD" logo receiver like few years ago "DTS"?

QUOTE=kdssrugby;105972]@HLKC:
Kind of but not really. Yes it can separate the audio, but it looks like it can only send the audio over spdif or coaxial.As mentioned before, these cannot handle trueHD.[/QUOTE]

So this piece only can separate the video and audio but it won't deliver what we wanted, HDMI 1.3 signal to receiver since SPDIF can't deliver such signal, right?

Based on this this thread #3, it can be done. So I assume it is NOT a true statement.



also,

 

[SamuriHL]

kdssrugby,

So what if we want the player, PDVD, to decode? what format will I able to stream to receiver? In any cases, we still need "TrueHD" logo receiver like few years ago "DTS"?

If you allow the player to decode the audio, you will *ALWAYS* be sending LPCM uncompressed streams. This, IMO, is desired for the reason I already mentioned. That means that the player decodes TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, etc to their uncompressed LPCM streams and sends the raw data down whatever pipe you're sending it down. (Analog or HDMI, in this case, as SPDIF simply can't handle anything beyond DTS' 1.5mpbs output) LPCM is the way to go IMO.

EDIT: To make what I'm saying even more clear, if you're letting the player decode the audio, the receiver does NOT need to have the DTS-HD MA and TrueHD decoders built in.