Warner goes Blu-ray exclusive

[ron spencer]

so its paramount, dreamworks, and universal left right?

what is the expression? And then there were three?

 

[deaacs]

Look Warner's never given a T.O.?? about the consumer, they're happy to put as much invasive stuff onto the disc as they possibly can. Trailers, warnings, etc.

 

[SamuriHL]

Exactly. Delayed - which would suggest they did have an expected release date in mind. You don't say something is delayed unless it's "late".

That could indeed be confirmation that there was in fact a release date in mind. Confirmation, until now, we did not have in this forum. So yes, I would agree that if something is delayed that there was a considered release date....if only internally and never publicly announced. However, this would give credence to the article that was posted on the internet suggesting an end of the year release. Like I said before, however, until now there was never any confirmation in this forum that it was accurate.

I don't know Slysoft's policy on announcing release dates, but it may be compatible with that.That's your opinion. Some customers may react like that, sure, others may react differently and I wouldn't be prepared to "guess" where the majority may lie.

I'm a software developer, so, I *DO* know where the majority lie. If you miss an announced release date, it's not pretty. And with something like this, it's impossible to know when it'll be finished. It's not like there's a project plan where you say "day 1, study encryption. day 2, crack first layer. day 3, create fake vm. day 4, PROFIT!" It's a lot of intense hours of trial, failure, and eventually success. Would YOU set a release date, even a guess, if you were facing that situation? And if you want any kind of proof of how people react, look at the reaction to them NOT giving a release date so far. Beyond that, look at the typical MS release and how well people take it when their release dates slip. It's a brutal world in software development.

As I said, supply and demand. If enough people ask for a release date then the Slysoft team may say "well, who thinks we should announce a release date at this point? here are the pro's, here are the con's, let's take a vote". You seem to suggest that what the customer-base at the forums ask for won't be considered. You don't speak for slysoft, and yet your posts make it sound like you do.

I never once said I speak for Slysoft. I have NEVER made that claim. I am offering *MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION* just as you are welcome to do. My opinion is that no, customers repeatedly asking for a release date are not going to help with a project such as this. If it's something you literally don't know, what are you going to do, make one up and hope for the best? How professional is that? Just because customers are asking for information doesn't mean the information is available to give.

As for the news, yes I think at this stage I would be prepared to say that BluRay is ahead in the war, and is looking to be the victor.

I say we definitely agree on this point.

 

[ron spencer]

sony now will be able to charge whatever they want....so I think if HD is dead why waste money on perhaps overrated HD stuff....does anyone now think DVD and upsampling players look more attractive?

Or will eveyone just say...."hey lets go BR even though it is anti-consumer"

 

[SamuriHL]

I've already invested a lot of money in HD equipment, so, I'm in it for the long haul. Even if it remains a niche product and average consumers ignore it, I will still be a fan. The video and audio quality are so far past DVD and upscaling. As much as I want HD DVD to win, I'd settle for Blu-ray if it meant a choice between that an no HD content at all.

 

[Charlie]

I've already invested a lot of money in HD equipment, so, I'm in it for the long haul. Even if it remains a niche product and average consumers ignore it, I will still be a fan. The video and audio quality are so far past DVD and upscaling. As much as I want HD DVD to win, I'd settle for Blu-ray if it meant a choice between that an no HD content at all.

Die HD Die! had to just for you SamuriHL. 8)

 

[SamuriHL]

Die HD Die! had to just for you SamuriHL. 8)

You can't stop me from watching the movies I already own.

 

[Charlie]

I tell HD to put spyware in their DVD's to infect your player and TV

 

[ron spencer]

that is what the studios expect.....

People on forums such as these forget they are in the minority. Most people do not have HD or BR or really care now. I personally think the HD BR formats weres pushed out too fast to a consumer who has just got FULLY into DVD (fully means not just watching, but making their OWN movies).

I look at the people on my street and colleagues...you know, those who do not goto forums such as these. They have all heard of BR and HD. Know what, these "regular average" people just did not care....until the PS3 came out. It is not movies for the average person but games. The PS3, as far as I am concerned, killed off HD long before these announcements. High def in general, at present, is not movies, but games for the AVERAGE, non-forum, using person. They still like DVDs and upsampling players. I think this is the realization the studios have come to. They need to mould people towards high def movies and most are happy with DVD. And the way to do this was (is) games. So it does make sense to go with who is able to sway the AVERAGE consumer; HD blew it in marketing and gaming. The effect of the movie studios jumping ship was just secondary.

 

[deaacs]

I'm a software developer, so, I *DO* know where the majority lie.

If you're a software developer then at best you'd be given 2nd hand information. At any rate, there are many different market demographics, which react differently to other demographics. One example may be the newsletter-subscriber base and another the forum member base; these two demographics may react differently to something like a release date announcement. It is the job of whoever's in charge of marketing/market research to find out and tell you which demographics you should offer something to, and how to go about advertising effectively to that demographic. Is it better to offer a coupon code to the forum demographic, or to the newsletter demographic?

And with something like this, it's impossible to know when it'll be finished. It's not like there's a project plan where you say "day 1, study encryption. day 2, crack first layer. day 3, create fake vm. day 4, PROFIT!" It's a lot of intense hours of trial, failure, and eventually success. Would YOU set a release date, even a guess, if you were facing that situation?

And how do you presume to know the situation Slysoft is facing at this present moment?

My opinion is that no, customers repeatedly asking for a release date are not going to help with a project such as this.

That's fine, it's my opinion that the feedback received in the forum is valid and valuable source of free information to Slysoft, where they can decide how and why to use the information. I have suggested, for instance, that adsense makes Slysoft's site look unprofessional. Right now on their home page I see a Google ad for "Fix AnyDVD.exe" and I think "that's not something I would want on my home page if I owned AnyDVD.exe". The forum provides free little pieces of information like that and Slysoft Co decides how and if to use it, so I do think their policies, which program they choose to devote more resources to, etc, have a positive effect on the development of their programs.

^^Ron, you make a good point and we are yet to see where the "average" consumer will swing. As word of mouth drives sales, we would expect them to follow the current pattern, unless one group of customers is more dissatisfied with the product then the other. The only way I see HD winning the war now would be if, and only if, current BD customers told their friends they were dissatisfied with the format and intend to switch to HD. But then again, HD customers may be the ones who are dissatisfied - because they can't buy the movies they want or something and that would just make BD's victory even more sure.

 

[SamuriHL]

If you're a software developer then at best you'd be given 2nd hand information. At any rate, there are many different market demographics, which react differently to other demographics. One example may be the newsletter-subscriber base and another the forum member base; these two demographics may react differently to something like a release date announcement. It is the job of whoever's in charge of marketing/market research to find out and tell you which demographics you should offer something to, and how to go about advertising effectively to that demographic. Is it better to offer a coupon code to the forum demographic, or to the newsletter demographic?

Fair enough. There are different demographics to be considered. But the demographic here on the forum, the ones asking for a release date, tends to be...."vocal and fanatic". Your point is valid, though. I get what you're saying.

And how do you presume to know the situation Slysoft is facing at this present moment?

Have you looked at what's involved in cracking BD+? It's not a small endeavor to crack it. There's a VM with 80 some odd commands...from verifying the integrity of the environment to decrypting INDiVIDUAL audio and/or video streams on the fly. So on top of AACS, you now have the possibility of encrypted audio and video streams OR pieces of audio and video streams. The BD+ VM has the ability to manipulate those streams in real time. Each disc has the ability to implement their own version of BD+ using these commands. So, in order to generically crack BD+, you will need to create a VM emulator that ignores the parts that check for integrity and implements the parts that do the decryption of the streams. In any case, yea, I got an idea of what they're facing. It ain't pleasant.

That's fine, it's my opinion that the feedback received in the forum is valid and valuable source of free information to Slysoft, where they can decide how and why to use the information. I have suggested, for instance, that adsense makes Slysoft's site look unprofessional. Right now on their home page I see a Google ad for "Fix AnyDVD.exe" and I think "that's not something I would want on my home page if I owned AnyDVD.exe". The forum provides free little pieces of information like that and Slysoft Co decides how and if to use it, so I do think their policies, which program they choose to devote more resources to, etc, have a positive effect on the development of their programs.

Right, I get what you're saying. And they DO listen to the feedback in this forum. However, what I'm saying is that if people constantly ask for a release date of an unfinished technology that can't be predicted, there's no information to release. Again, they could make up an arbitrary date but that doesn't really serve any purpose IMO.

^^Ron, you make a good point and we are yet to see where the "average" consumer will swing. As word of mouth drives sales, we would expect them to follow the current pattern, unless one group of customers is more dissatisfied with the product then the other. The only way I see HD winning the war now would be if, and only if, current BD customers told their friends they were dissatisfied with the format and intend to switch to HD. But then again, HD customers may be the ones who are dissatisfied - because they can't buy the movies they want or something and that would just make BD's victory even more sure.

Word of mouth from the early adopters is DEFINITELY going to have an impact. I think it already has with the enthusiasts. Now that enthusiasts have hit critical mass, they'll start telling the average consumers what to buy. I think at this point, the enthusiasts have chosen Blu-ray. Unfortunate? Yes, but, that's what we have.

 

[ocnier]

****ing Warner just boned us all. I agree totally with James about HD DVD being more consumer friendly. This totally blows big chunks.....

 

[TM2-Megatron]

And honestly, it's not like we're any more than a few days into the new year at this point anyway. Jeez, give the guys some time; Slysoft isn't running a sweatshop here, lol.

I haven't seen many comments from Slysoft people about BD+, but from what I have seen they are indeed working on it, and it's probably coming along well enough. Best to make sure all the major glitches are worked out before releasing an update that major, though. Also, I suppose they still need to decide if there's going to be an upgrade fee for BD+ functionality.

 

[Webslinger]

.
I haven't seen many comments from Slysoft people about BD+, but from what I have seen they are indeed working on it.

click http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=77979&postcount=120

 

[Pelvis Popcan]

thats because they only started coming out the end of December. I can buy DL HD DVDr's for less than a single layer BD-r

I have not seen a single source, not a single one, that sells a HD-DVD writer. Toshiba announced some models in 2005, then they never released them. I have also not seen a single source, not a single one, that sells DL HD-DVD media. I've searched high and low, and I came to the conclusion that they don't exist.

http://www.videohelp.com/dvdwriters...erby=Name&hits=50&Submit=Search&Search=Search

Those are the two Toshiba models that never came out.

Now here you come along and say you have a HD-DVD writer and DL media. What model is it, specifically? I mean what model number? What manufacturer? Where did you buy it? Where did you buy DL media?

 

[Adbear]

I have not seen a single source, not a single one, that sells a HD-DVD writer. Toshiba announced some models in 2005, then they never released them. I have also not seen a single source, not a single one, that sells DL HD-DVD media. I've searched high and low, and I came to the conclusion that they don't exist.

http://www.videohelp.com/dvdwriters...erby=Name&hits=50&Submit=Search&Search=Search

Those are the two Toshiba models that never came out.

Now here you come along and say you have a HD-DVD writer and DL media. What model is it, specifically? I mean what model number? What manufacturer? Where did you buy it? Where did you buy DL media?

Then you didn't look very far for the media, you can buy it all over the place
http://www2.computeruniverse.net/ur...roducts/90229572.asp&agent=288&urlmapped=true
Although the price has now gone up as I got mine at 39.90 euros

http://www.ukdvdr.co.uk/shop/HD-DVD-c-359.html
thats a couple of sites that sell discs and the first one has Dual layer I ordered some on thursday and they shipped yesterday. I bought my first single layer discs around 4 months ago in anticipation of the drives coming out and got the writer just before xmas I have the Toshiba SD-L902A which I bought to go in my laptop. Like I said they are due to roll out this month. But our supplier got this one in early so we snapped it up

Here's a few I found using google
http://www.google.co.uk/products?hl=en&q=toshiba+sd-l902a&um=1&ie=UTF-8

 

[Bill101]

I haven`t seen any DL HD DVD discs yet either,but Toshiba does make an HD DVD writer for their high end laptops.They don`t sell it separatly,at least not that I`ve seen,in fact the last time I looked,it wasn`t even listed on their site.It`s only available to o.e.m.`s.They really dropped the ball on that one.

 

[Adbear]

My laptop is not a Toshiba it's made by Clevo, and I've had the laptop for over a year, and got the drive the week before xmas

 

[Stormlord]

HD DVDs demise is mainly due to bad marketing decisions

I've expected this, and I think HD DVD will die: if it does it is mainly due to bad marketing/product release choices.

Implementing HD DVD drives in some laptops was a smart move, but Sony's PS3 move maybe even better and Sony quickly managed to get some laptops uit with Blu Ray slim drives.

While Blu Ray external players are still more expensive in general, the price differences are diminishing and it will only take a bit longer for blu ray player prices to come down because they have more complex hardware and software requirements.

Still: over here Blu Ray and HD DVD are still treated as a fairly niche product if I look in shops... Many only have a small collection of discs at hand, and often they do not even have their own shelves!!! (certainly not HD DVD, there are several shops that do not even carry any HD DVD while they have +50 Blu Ray titles on stock!)

Not because it is a bad format as such, mainly due to its TERRRIBLE marketing. Atleast over here (Belgium) there are HARDLY any titles available, I see ZILCH publicity for HD DVD (Blu Ray here and there on TV, more stands in shops etc..) and there are still no noteworthy HD DVD recorders and hardly any blank media available for HD DVD as opposed to blu ray recorders & media being available and on the market for quite some time now. That said a great many people still do NOT know what Blu Ray or HD DVD is and they do not care much, they are happy with DVD.

That said, there are the obvious pro's to the HD DVD format - I state the most important ones:
- shorting loading times
- no BD+/J
- no region coding
- less protection

For the industry however things like BD+/J and more protection are POSITIVE BONUSES, not negative points - so the only real plus remaining for HD DVD is probably the shorter loading times... Asside from that Blu Ray currently also offers more capacity per disc (although this often isn't much of a point for movies, it can be a good point for endusers basing a pc backup medium recorder purchasing decision).

The anti scratch layer is hardly anything noteworthy. IMHO, If I take a look at my Blu ray blanks: they have it too, but it's only thinner than HD DVD's... In any case, the surface scratches far less easily than any DVD disc would and feels harder/more resistant. DVD was terrible at that and at readability/reliability over long term. Blu ray has left a much better first impression to me regarding that (also there is an obvious and noticeable difference in production quality), however - in practice: only time will tell how well the discs will keep remaining reliable.

I said it before, and I will say it again: the cards are stacked in Blu Ray's favour. Some people will find that unfortunate because of "Sony being an evil empire" - but are they? Are they any less so than e.g. the "evil matsushita empire" ? They are both companies trying to make money and trying to protect their intellectual properties. Some times they try something new and it fails, but that is the price you have to pay for trying to come up with new idea: not just some of Sony products failed to be a successful breakthrough in the past you know... Some people still seem to carry a grudge to Sony because they bought something in the past that didn't catch on, but people seem to forget that has happened with non Sony products too... That does not justify overprotection of product and trying to reduce enduser rights, and my personal stance is also firmly against those - but it doesn't make their product inherently bad. All companies exist with the intent to earn money, not loose it.

 

[Pelvis Popcan]

Then you didn't look very far for the media, you can buy it all over the place
http://www2.computeruniverse.net/ur...roducts/90229572.asp&agent=288&urlmapped=true

Thanks for the link, although I'm in the USA. I couldn't find it at all a couple of weeks ago, now, as you say, it appears to be all over Google Products.

http://www.ukdvdr.co.uk/shop/HD-DVD-c-359.html

Those are all single layer.

I have the Toshiba SD-L902A which I bought to go in my laptop. Like I said they are due to roll out this month. But our supplier got this one in early so we snapped it up

Ah, so it's a notebook only writer. I looked at the links from the vendors on Google Products and also the product page on the Toshiba website. I don't understand how you would determine with what notebooks that drive would be compatible with. There's no list anywhere I could find, and no specification on what type of interface or port it uses so that you could look for notebooks to buy that would be compatible with that drive (if you wanted to buy the drive then get a notebook that it would work with for example).

How did you know that this drive would work in your Clevo laptop?

There's also a SD-L912A (Google Products.) It appears that the 912A supports HD-DVD RW, and the 902A does not.

Anyways, for someone looking for a desktop standard drive (IDE or SATA), that's not useful, and there still are no such drives available. The Toshiba website still lists the SD-903A, which is the model they announced back in 2005, which appears to be vaporware... it's nowhere to be found from any vendor or even anyone on eBay. If this drive was ever actually manufactured and actually exists, I have yet to hear from a single person who has one. (The Toshiba webpage does not even specify if it's an IDE or SATA drive.)

That Toshibastorage.com website is very frustrating to use by the way... it constantly kept stalling, locking up, and giving me error messages. For example, many of the links that are supposed to list all the HD-DVD drives cause the site to lock up or return error messages. It took quite a bit of digging to come up with a link that actually works: http://sdd.toshiba.com/main.aspx?Pa...es/ProductIndex-HardDrives/ProductIndex-HDDVD.

So Toshiba makes the only known HD-DVD writers, and the one (or two) that you can actually buy are for notebooks, but there's no list anywhere specifying which notebooks these drives are compatible with. Not very useful IMHO.