Suggested Compression & File Settings?

Discussion in 'CloneBD' started by IamGaryGnu, Oct 28, 2020.

  1. IamGaryGnu

    IamGaryGnu Member

    Hi - I have been an avid fan of anydvd and clonedvd where I know what I'm doing.
    I'm new to the world of BluRay having upgraded my home theater equipment, and I'm begging for help.
    I am NOT interested in copying to discs, I am interested in watching movies (sometimes over and over!) on my home theater PC, usually Kodi via OpenElec, though my new NAS will natively support Plex and I may go in that direction.
    I believe the typical bluray is about 50gb, and i read about BR25. Again, since I'm not going back to disc, and as I get older my eyesite is getting worse anyway, I figure nice 1080p will suit me just fine, thank you very much. If anyone cares, my projector is the sony vpl-45es which is HD, but not 4k. (IF i later go to 4k, i'd have to post this again i suppose!).
    I like menus, I like English audio only, and I don't want coming attractions.
    Is there a "sweet spot" setting of quality versus size? I THINK my DVDs automagically go down to about 4.7gb anyway, which I think is about 50% compression. I'd love to have bluray files about 5gb but that might be a pipe dream, or might lose too much fidelity. I do want decent sound to go along.
    If there's a suggested bit rate or compression setting i'd be appreciative, i didn't spot it anywhere. I only got CloneBD yesterday, and I am trying to learn my way - but when i need 100gb free on my hd for processing, etc. the "stakes" are much higher than "mere" dvds.
    my in-wall hdmi cable (about 12 years old) MIGHT be able to handle full 3d, or it may handle interlaced. If i want to view some 3d (on the fence) i'd also ask if there's any special processing or suggestions.
    lastly, i wouldn't intend to save as isos unless that is a good way to go - at least with my DVDs they've all been in a file structure on the NAS.
    Thanks for any help!!!!
     
  2. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    Hi IamGaryGnu.

    I'm sure you'll be glad you entered this world. :=)


    The maximum size of a Blu-Ray is 50G.

    I did an average of the sizes of retail Blu-Rays I've obtained this year and it came out to about 35G.


    1080P looks pretty sweet!


    Same here!

    When I first got CloneBD I would edit every Blu-Ray I got to eliminate those trailers.

    Later when time became a bigger issue, I changed my strategy to only CloneBD-edit those titles that force you to sit through the previews on mounting the disc.

    Most Blu-Ray discs let you bypass them by pressing Top Menu or Pop-Up Menu - but not all by any means.


    Yeah squeezing down from 50G to 5 is a bit much!!!

    I like getting the highest video and audio quality possible so I rarely compress my backups.

    But if I do, for whatever rare reason, I never compress to less than 25G. That's a maximum of 50% compression.


    If you want Menus, as you stated, then you'll have to use the "Create Folder Structure" option in CloneBD.

    I'm not familiar with Plex or Kodi, so someone else could probably tell you if Blu Ray folders play well with them, if at all.




    T
     
    whatever_gong82 likes this.
  3. IamGaryGnu

    IamGaryGnu Member

    Many thanks T for the reply. I guess I'll have to try a few different methods. I only have a handful of blurays (so far) and zillions of DVDs which i thought were fine, but now i'm spoiled. (hey, still a lot better than VHS!)
    using kodi, it would essentially play the DVDs without and issue, and clonedvd would let me save a ts folder and audio folder (if i recall correctly, and i think the second folder would be blank anyway). sometimes i'd have a movie flip half way from english to spanish, or english to english narration (whether director's comments, or actually for blind, so describing the setting, or "he said as he ducked" kind of stuff.
    I have NO IDEA of the bluray structure or format.
    so, i guess that leaves me to try different transcoding at the pc level and then see how it plays on the projector (2 day old projector). i don't have a bluray notebook, and i don't want to bring my desktop to the projector, so awkward way to try out different settings.
    are you aware if you can copy just one segment - like one chapter? that way i guess if there were 20 chapters, i could save the time for the other 19 as i try out different settings, unless the settings vary a lot from disc to disc. for example, one of my all time favorites is nightmare before x-mas, which is a dark movie - i'm not sure if that would compress much better than say, a film with a lot of color.
    i was kinda hoping for a rule, formula, or suggested settings, but i read above, 50% is the max you'll go. and though it's digital, i wonder what happens if you go more than that - do you lose frames? i.e. the image per frame is as sharp, there is just less of them?
    i'm finding it odd that i'm the only one who ever asked this, so maybe i'm missing it elsewhere (didn't find on a search) or maybe it is more obvious to other folks.
    Again, thank you for the reply, and if anyone (or you) have more to add, it would be very appreciated, thanks!
     
  4. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    Yes, DVD is better than VHS - and Blu-Ray is many times better than DVD.

    Many have moved on from Blu-Ray to UHD whose discs go up to 100G.

    They have even higher resolutions than Blu-Ray, better color, and a higher dynamic range between light and dark areas.

    So if that interests you, you have some catching up to do. LOL!


    But if you want to get the benefit of Blu-Ray's improved picture, you'll have to think about using a lot more space.

    Trying to get Blu-Ray content to fit in close-to-DVD storage space is not gonna work very well.

    If space is really limited for you, you may have to forego Menus and consider converting the Main Movie on your Blu-Ray to .mkv format with CloneBD.

    It gives the biggest bang for the buck in my opinion with quality audio, video (and subtitles) in a smaller file container than a Blu-Ray folder.


    A DVD folder contains a VIDEO_TS and an AUDIO_TS subfolder.

    Blu-Ray folders contain a BDMV and a CERTIFICATE subfolder.

    Whereas you can (often) get away with playing a subfile in the VIDEO_TS folder to watch an entire DVD movie, you can't (usually) do that with the subcomponents of a Blu-Ray folder.


    I'm curious how is your projector accessing the computer content to play?


    It's possible to select and edit the main title of a Blu-Ray in CloneBD and trim it down to a chapter or two, and output that for testing purposes.

    How much time it would save, I'm not sure.


    I don't know the tech details but you would lose picture quality fast (at least for folder output).

    It would get to the point you may be better off with the DVD. LOL!


    Again, if your goal is to use as little space as possible, but still retain the beauty of 1080p Blu-Ray, then .mkv (or even .mp4) files may be the best route for you.

    You would create a file for the Main movie, and one for each extra if that interests you, but you'd have to give up the Menu.


    You're very welcome.


    Quick tip in case you're not aware:

    If you "Reply" to a post or at least tag the person you're responding to (for example "@testiles"), it alerts the member that you have responded and they may see your follow-up post quicker.




    T
     
    whatever_gong82 likes this.
  5. IamGaryGnu

    IamGaryGnu Member

    @testiles
    1) again, very many thanks

    2) i'm awaiting my shiny new NAS drive that is coming today - i have 3 linkstations (well, 4 but i decommissioned an older one) - the new one (terramaster) has a plex server built in, and some other goodness - 5 bays, but perhaps of greater interest (if any!) - 2 12tv NAS drives - so in RAID 1 i figure at 50gb uncompressed, i should be able to store 240 movies, and if i bring them down to 25gb, well, i think you can double... :)
    so, i'll have plenty of storage space, and as prices drop, and my collection fills (if it ever does) i can add 2 more drives, the thing will handle up to 16tb drives, whereas my linkstations max out at i think 8tb drives. i MAY also bring over my DVD collection from the linkstations, but no reason to do that yet.

    again, i'm new to this, and i'll have to try saving the same movie with different compression settings to see "best bang for the buck" but, the bluray bit rate appears to be a max of 40Mbits, and i read that 1080p (my current preferred weapon of choice) uses 12Mbit/s for 48, 50, and 60FPS, and 8Mbit/s for 24, 25, and 30fps. My projector claims to really handle 24fps very well, regardless, if i go with 12Mbit/s, or a smidge more for streaming latency, i think i will max out the 1080p, so i think (unless i'm wrong) i can compress on a case by case basis to roughly 24gb to get the bitrate slightly above 12Mbit/s - does that seem like it makes sense? just keep the English captions (my hearing has gone to crap, but I want good sound anyway, but like to turn my captions on most of the time, especially for the few British things I watch).

    my plan, and what i set up before leaving for work, is a roughly 25gb compression, with the initial menu (forgot what it's called, where i think i can choose captions and sound options - top menu?) and then the chapter menu, along with english language only, english captions, and then the audio left alone, versus forcing only a certain audio standard (not sure how much i'd save with limiting the standard, but there's a chance i'd add more speakers, etc. so want to keep audio options).

    Last question from this babble, and i am babbling (some good coffee today!) - if i "over compress" is the image actually the same, just less frames, i.e. it would be sluggish or look bad? and if my bitrate was too low, would that be the effect? similarly, if the 1080p uses 12Mbit/s and i have an uncompressed image coming in at 40 Mbit/sec does that mean there are more frames showing than 1080p can handle, or do they just not show those?
    thanks again!!!!
     
  6. IamGaryGnu

    IamGaryGnu Member

    i know, i know - i'm back and very verbose.
    I just realized or saw, CloneBD will handle H.265/HEVC (great, whatever HEVC is). Kodi can handle H.265 i believe - so now the question becomes do i save as a folder structure like i have with DVDs, or do i use the H.265 or similar standard, as long as Kodi (and i guess Plex) can read them. that MIGHT allow greater compression. i'll have to keep researching, thanks again!
     
  7. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    Considering the average size of a Blu-Ray seems to be around 35G, you'll probably get quite a bit more uncompressed in your config.

    I took a look at the Blu-Ray section of one of my drives - it's holding 46 uncompressed Blu-Ray .iso's in 1.55T of space.

    That's an average there of close to 34G each.


    Sorry, you're way over my head here. LOL!

    All I do when I make a Blu-Ray folder with CloneBD is set the Destination to either "BD-R DL 50G" (if I don't want compression) or "BD-R 25G" (if I do), select Original Audio, and let CloneBD take over from there.

    When I create an .mkv, I never compress, so I select "Copy Original Lossless" for both video and audio, and let CloneBD fly from there.

    Maybe someone who works more with compression in CloneBD can help you more there.


    Yeah, the Main Menu.

    If you're creating a BluRay folder in CloneBD, doing a Partial Copy, and only selecting certain video titles, be sure to include all 1-frame titles that are completely black.

    They're needed for proper navigation in the folder output.

    Sounds like you left off the Bonus features, so I take it you don't need those.


    Good idea.

    Takes up a little bit more space, but worth it, IMO.


    As I mentioned earlier, if space is a major concern, using .mkv or .mp4 may be the way to go. And yes, I believe H.265 does the best compression.

    So that may be your solution, as long as you don't mind having single files with movie only.



    T
     
    whatever_gong82 likes this.
  8. IamGaryGnu

    IamGaryGnu Member

    @testiles and again thank you! you have me thinking you're the only one on the forums! :)
    i know i'm a broken record, but since i am disinterested in burning to a bluray (i'm not even sure my reader is also a writer) my interests lie in mostly watching via kodi (or possibly plex) and perhaps transcoding some files for my ipad. i've done that with handbrake in the past with dvds. when i've gone the file route, it's been "down and dirty" - i go for lower res, smaller screen, and the frills are gone - which is fine. I do very much like the menus, but if it is a major hassle, i guess i might have to say bu bye to them - if you know, if i go with H265 does that automagically give me decent compression, or do i still have to request compression and make some decisions? and if you know, "pound for pound" does compressed iso or h.265 look better than a comparbly sized compressed file structure would?
    i also imagine that if i go iso, i could recreate the entire bluray, but if i go h.265 i can't reverse.
    funny - i have a 200 disc dvd changer (no hdmi, only composite output, toslink, etc.) and i thought about hooking it up, though i have i think all the disks on my NAS anyway - but the biggest use for it now is to hold the friggin DVDs that are all over the place - i may just use a spindle or something for them - right now the only real benefit is so i can prove i have ownership of them. ditto blurays - once i have on the drive, i can't imagine firing up the actual discs again, unless i want to show off a movie in uncompresed glory.
    If i can ask, when you compress to BD25 or even keep at BD50, how do you play the movies - in a player, or using something else?
    those new NAS drives should have arrived at my home so i'll start setting up. next stop, to decide how to play. i'm toying with the idea of getting an nvidia shield - my HTPC that runs Linux/OpenOLEC is getting a bit long in the tooh....like my posts!
    thanks again!
     
  9. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    LOL! My hope is someone chimes in to help you out, because you've pretty much gone beyond my knowledge right now.

    Someone who knows NAS, Kodi, Plex, Shield please - assistance!! :=)


    Ok.


    In CloneBD it'll give you decent compression.

    I just checked and the main options when selecting H.265 .mkv file creation is at what resolution and with what audio.


    Blu-Ray and .iso files are very similar and compress the same.

    H.265 makes much smaller files with similar resolutions.


    Another reason I create uncompressed .iso's.

    Something happens to the original disc, I have the ability to recreate and replace it from the .iso.


    I rarely do.

    Unless it's a real blockbuster that I want to watch with my stand-alone, which at this point has a better picture than I can achieve with a player.

    I've been told some players can be tweaked to rival the best stand-alones, but I haven't yet witnessed that first-hand.


    Other than the rare use of the standalone I just mentioned, 100% use of PowerDVD or JRiver players.




    T
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  10. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    I can offer what I do and see if it helps you. I rip all my content to mkv format with clonebd. I don't personally compress just rip the streams I care about to an mkv container. That goes to my nas. I have a fairly powerful htpc so I have a Plex server running on that plus I have jriver mc. Both programs build a library of my content. I have Plex on my shields in every room so I can watch everywhere. On mobile devices Plex will transcode on the fly to the device and connection I'm on. Locally no transcoding takes place. I can even watch Dolby vision in mkv format now. I think this meets the usage you're looking for.
     
  11. Hoth80

    Hoth80 Member

    I'll try and answer from your first post onwards:

    1) Ripping to .iso with AnyDVD HD is the best option for archiving the entire disk, but it is the second most cumbersome (after ripping to folder): It uses the most space, and while the .iso file can be mounted on your system and will then appear as a virtual CD/DVD/Blu-ray drive preserving the Blu-ray menus, you need software that can read the menus to be able to use them. PLEX does not read .isos. VLC should support Blu-ray menus if you have Java installed, but I have never attempted this myself.

    PLEX functions like your own personal Netflix. It has its own menus to change audio/subtitle tracks.

    2) Quality is in the perception of each person. That said, a Blu-ray can in most cases be compressed ~66-75% before the average person starts to really notice a difference. However, this depends on a large number of factors: size of the screen, viewing distance, and what settings were used to transcode it.

    A few things to keep in mind:

    Software encoding (using your CPU) will almost always result in a better picture than hardware (using your GPU). However, it takes much more time.
    H.265 can be better than H.264, but it takes much more time, and in many cases may not be worth it. While it has improved greatly the last few years, H.265 still isn't as widely supported as h.264.

    3) Higher compression doesn't result in lost frames. It results in blockiness like a bad youtube stream.

    4) HEVC = H.265. AVC = H.264. As noted above, H.265 is superior, at the cost of speed and player support.


    Based on what you've said, I think the best option for you is to use CloneBD to convert to .mkv without any compression. (This is the Copy Original (lossless) option).

    I say this because storage space doesn't appear to be an issue, and if you are going to use a solution like PLEX for playback, .iso is out.
    You will still get some space savings since you can choose to only save English languages and subtitles, as well as leaving off all the extras like deleted scenes (though you can also copy these to .mkv if you wish). As an example, a movie in my drive is 42.5GB, but copying just the main movie with only English audio will result in a file 35GB. 7.5GB savings over an .iso.
     
  12. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    IamGaryGnu seemed to be considering Blu-Ray folders (created by CloneBD) more than .iso's.


    Will they work in PLEX?



    T
     
  13. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL & Mod

    plex doesn't support iso's or file structures (DVD/BD alike). I know i'm using plex myself with a huge library.
     
  14. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    Ok, thanks Ch3vr0n.


    T
     
  15. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    Kodi will though. Not sure if it'll work with ISO but it should handle folders at least. I think it MAY work with ISO, as well, just not sure. Never tried.
     
  16. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL & Mod

    Perhaps, but the question was does Plex. Not 'does kodi'. And Plex doesn't.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
     
  17. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    And nowhere in my reply did I make any suggestion that Plex did. I've been using it for many years now so I'm aware of what it can and can't do. Plex is going to give you basic file support with limitations depending on your chosen file type. Most people aren't aware of those limitations, unfortunately. E.G. Good luck with subtitles in TS/M2TS files and other fun problems.
     
  18. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL & Mod

    Yup, which is why I wanted srt subtitle files

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
     
  19. Hoth80

    Hoth80 Member

    Kodi will play unprotected .ISOs, so you will need to rip them with AnyDVD HD and remove the protections. I do not know about whether it reads folder structure.

    The main difference between Kodi and PLEX that I've seen is that Kodi is more along the lines of a traditional HTPC/Media player while PLEX is more like your own personal Netflix.

    PLEX is a server, which means it pushes OUT to multiple devices, and will transcode on the fly to match what the receiving device is capable of (and the network). Content like TV Shows will be organized generally by season, with features like auto-play allowing you to easily binge a whole season/show without the hassle of changing discs.


    Kodi is more like an advanced media player, which means it pulls IN content from other devices. It does not transcode. If your content is stored as .ISO files you will have to manually select the next file like changing discs on a CD/DVD/Blu-ray player, auto-play won't work. If your content is stored as .MKVs or other similar formats auto-play should work however.


    They are similar, but not quite the same. You can have the best of both worlds though by running PLEX as an add-on to Kodi. I don't have personal experience with this however.
     
  20. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    That's a great explanation of the differences between Plex and Kodi, Hoth80!

    I definitely understand this better now.

    (y)



    T
     
    Hoth80 likes this.