• AnyStream is having some DRM issues currently, Netflix is not available in HD for the time being.
    Situations like this will always happen with AnyStream: streaming providers are continuously improving their countermeasures while we try to catch up, it's an ongoing cat-and-mouse game. Please be patient and don't flood our support or forum with requests, we are working on it 24/7 to get it resolved. Thank you.

Request Amazon CBR video quality

Status
Not open for further replies.
Indeed off topic and rather pointless.

So back on topic, I think Don922 asked the right question:
How do you know that the content providers provide both vbr and cbr downloads?

From the old threads the search brouhgt up, seems this was never answered.
 
...That is, static scenes will have high detail, moving scenes will spend the bits on the parts of the screen where the eye is drawn and less on the background, but more that static scenes...

So a potential downside of VBR would be not being able to follow cluttered fast moving scenes so well when it is done poorly, and being unable to see a clean image when screen capturing a fast moving scene? Or more getting blocks in shadows and banding on walls?

But, then would CBR have the problem that it can't allocate more to a complex/fast scene if its fixed rate is set too low, with similar outcome?
 
So a potential downside of VBR would be not being able to follow cluttered fast moving scenes so well when it is done poorly, and being unable to see a clean image when screen capturing a fast moving scene? Or more getting blocks in shadows and banding on walls?

But, then would CBR have the problem that it can't allocate more to a complex/fast scene if its fixed rate is set too low, with similar outcome?

The potential downside of anything done poorly is that the result will suck. So the first part of your question is something of a strawman argument.

What VBR excels at is dealing with both fast moving scenes and static scenes by allocating the bits needed to represent both without wastage.
Like anything with variable quality it depends on how well you do it and what your priorities are for the result.
By and large, none of the providers we work with do encoding poorly. It is just too easy to do it right and too expensive to do it wrong. But storage costs, bandwidth costs, and circumstances change. Thus, any entity that pays for storage (includes me) and bandwidth (me too) is motivated to reduce the size of the encoded video to reduce both costs. On the other side, consumers are no longer satisfied with blocky 320x240 video (if they ever were), so there are limits how small video streams can be.
The balance that the providers strike I would call 'pretty good, but not pristine' for overall quality. My mother can't tell the difference. As an aside, it used to be that most consumers couldn't tell the difference between SD video on an HD display or HD video on that same display. I want to believe that is no longer true, but I am not at all sure.

You mentioned capturing a clean image from 1 of a series of frames in a fast moving scene. This is indeed an area where any encoding method may sacrifice some detail because the human mind perceives visual images differently when studying them at leisure than when they are moving fast. This is part of the hunter-prey paradigm that used to be really important to eating regularly.
With either VBR or CBR when you have to fit a scene into a fixed (CBR) or maximum average (VBR) bit budget, such perceptual encoding may be applied. The more limited the space, the more aggressively you apply it. CBR is usually more constrained because you are always trying to keep the stream full but never overflow and you can't put anything in the 'bank', as VBR does.

You mention banding in walls (I tend to think of the sky, myself). Banding is a artifact not of an encoding strategy like VBR or CBR, but of the structure of the pixels used to represent the images. What I mean by this is that in a digital system (including modern video) each unit of information (pixel) is represented by by a group of numbers which can have only so many separate values in a range. For 8 bits, the number of values is 256, for 10 bits 1024, for 12 bits 4096, etc.
Banding occurs when there is a smooth gradient of shade or color in the original (like the sky or a wall) which changes by only a few steps across a wide space. When the values are 8-bit, the difference between shade 60 and shade 61, for example is, quite visible on modern displays and looks like a discrete band. When the values are 12-bit the difference between shade 960 and shade 961 as so small as to be invisible to the eye, and with such small steps the displayed sky or wall does not appear to have steps but a smooth gradient.
This is deep color (10,12,16 bits per component pixels).

There is similar banding effect that occurs in the very dark and, to a lesser degree, the very light scenes. This is when the range of light to dark between 255 and 0 is narrower than what the original source portrays. Everything looks like a nice gradient until you hit too dark or too light and you get a single band where it gets no darker or lighter. This is the failing of inadequate dynamic range. In order to represent normal lighting well, very bright and very dark quality are sacrificed.
Additional information can be encoded in the video stream to deal with the rare but important scenes with very dark or very light pixels. One way is marketed as HDR (High Dynamic Range).
Both deep color and HDR become compelling because our displays are good enough to show us that we don't have them.
The pixel structure chosen is independent of whether CBR or VBR is used.

If you setup a hypothetical case where the CBR rate is the same as the maximum VBR limit, CBR can look just as good as VBR. With energetic video the CBR will be 4 to 10 times the size of the VBR, though, when encoding bit depth, dynamic range, optimizations and codec are equal. If you cut corners on any of these, with either, the resulting video will show it.
If you set the CBR rate above the maximum VBR limit, it could even look better, as one of the CBR proponents suggested. I give that a 'Duh?' mark.
You will note he imagined such a stream in a hand drawn graph but did not have one for the actual bandwidth display he captured. That CBR stream may be as elusive or apocryphal as the Loch Ness Monster.

If such streams exist and are offered by Amazon (seems doubtful) I would support making them selectable. But I would prioritize it below most anything else that developers might spend their time on. Including a nap.
 
You will note he imagined such a stream in a hand drawn graph but did not have one for the actual bandwidth display he captured. That CBR stream may be as elusive or apocryphal as the Loch Ness Monster.

If i was able to get such a stream, i for sure would not have need to use this software, i would get it directly by myself.

It's clear that if i contributed to this thread i've seen such CBR Lochness Monster around,

and it's even more clear that if this topics exists at all other people have seen it too.

It seems the pro-CBR people don't have an interest in answering an intelligent question

How could "we" answer to these question? I have not such knowledge of stream analysis (nor I have to, I pay the devs to have it) and most people have no knowledge at all.

I can only guess, that in the same way there is a "manifest" declaring a list of "quality /resolution of streams"

there could be one that marks like "CBR" or "Best quality" or "Max Bitrate" or such.


But frankly my opinion at this point is that a simple and legit request (if it was brought up again and again there will be a reason?)

has been trasformed in a crusade against simple freedom of choice.
 
Last edited:
Because it was an intelligent question. It seems the pro-CBR people don't have an interest in answering an intelligent question, they just want to argue things that they believe are true.
If we could agree to simply ignore the ongoing CBR vs. VBR turmoil...

Just for the fun of it I tried downloading a current movie with the proprietary AP Windows App. Unfortunately it doesn't tell you anything about the stream properties and you can't analyse it (at least I couldn't) due to the DRM. Just from the looks it seems to have been also 1080p resolution even on a 4k screen and downloaded with "best" settings, but just maybe it could also be 1440p. Hard to tell if you get scaling or slightly less scaling... Definately no real 4k. Funny thing is, the file was bigger, than the one downloaded with AS, but by far not enough to be some greatly superior stream. More like 3.5 gb vs. 2.8 gb including audio.

Still impatiently waiting for directions how to determine for certain, if there are different video streams of the same resolution available, and how to grab one for comparison.
 
Last edited:
If we could agree to simply ignore the ongoing CBR vs. VBR turmoil...

Just for the fun of it I tried downloading a current movie with the proprietary AP Windows App. Unfortunately it doesn't tell you anything about the stream properties and you can't analyse it (at least I couldn't) due to the DRM. Just from the looks it seems to have been also 1080p resolution even on a 4k screen and downloaded with "best" settings, but just maybe it could also be 1440p. Hard to tell if you get scaling or slightly less scaling... Definately no real 4k. Funny thing is, the file was bigger, than the one downloaded with AS, but by far not enough to be some greatly superior stream. More like 3.5 gb vs. 2.8 gb.

Still impatiently waiting for directions how to determine for certain, if there are different video streams of the same resolution available, and how to grab one for comparison.
People posted still picture from movie ( frames) but that tells you nothing. VBR in a .mp4 container, it still the best quality, unless the movie is from the 60s, or 70s.
 
Funny thing is, the file was bigger, than the one downloaded with AS, but by far not enough to be some greatly superior stream. More like 3.5 gb vs. 2.8 gb including audio.

Interesting... you say the file downloaded with AS was smaller in size than the one of the proprietary AP app?

That could find some coincidence with my downloaded episode, which honestly seems too low on bitrate to be the best AP has to offer.

Apart from the real quality inside it, seem from your test as if it was some "quality /size level" above that recognized by AS (at least in your case).

Did you repeat the test? Just to be sure that the 2 streams were indeed 2 different, not a random situation occurred.

Altought +700 Gb it's not a big but neither small amount of "quality"

i think focus ought to be the fact that the two streams (AS vs AP) are not the same, and i think would have to be (like on a shelf, AP got version "A" and AS got version "B").

Could it be some "masked" call by the AP prime to download the "higher" level version?

A network TCP analysis of the send/reply of the AP app pheraps could be revealing.


For the sake of completion, i have to say that I downloaded another tv episode

and it resulted in a real massive bitrate.

ME2JPIV_o.png

So pheraps those "not the best version" situations happen on specific circumstances (user agent? just guessing).

@fretzke
If you could explain me (in PM too) the method of downloading and finding the downloaded file from the AP app, i could compare at least the size of these 2 streams.
 
Last edited:
Interesting... you say the file downloaded with AS was smaller in size than the one of the proprietary AP app?

That could find some coincidence with my downloaded episode, which honestly seems too low on bitrate to be the best AP has to offer.

Apart from the real quality inside it, seem from your test as if it was some "quality /size level" above that recognized by AS (at least in your case).

Did you repeat the test? Just to be sure that the 2 streams were indeed 2 different, not a random situation occurred.

Altought +700 Gb it's not a big but neither small amount of "quality"

i think focus ought to be the fact that the two streams (AS vs AP) are not the same, and i think would have to be (like on a shelf, AP got version "A" and AS got version "B").

Could it be some "masked" call by the AP prime to download the "higher" level version?

A network TCP analysis of the send/reply of the AP app pheraps could be revealing.


For the sake of completion, i have to say that I downloaded another tv episode

and it resulted in a real massive bitrate.


So pheraps those "not the best version" situations happen on specific circumstances (user agent? just guessing).

@fretzke
If you could explain me (in PM too) the method of downloading and finding the downloaded file from the AP app, i could compare at least the size of these 2 streams.
This thread is like beating a dead horse. It will only go so far, it looks like an AA meeting for stubborn people. :banghead::banghead:
 
My additional contribution to CBR vs VBR:

Dakota tribal wisdom says that when you discover you are riding a dead
horse, the best strategy is to dismount. However, in business we often
try other strategies with dead horses, including the following:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Say things like, "This is the way we have always ridden this horse."
4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Increasing the standards to ride dead horses.
7. Appointing a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
8. Creating a training session to increase our riding ability.
9. Comparing the state of dead horses in todays environment.
10. Change the requirements declaring that "This horse is not dead."
11. Hire contractors to ride the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat."
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
15. Do a Cost Analysis study to see if contractors can ride it
cheaper.
16. Purchase a product to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare the horse is "better, faster and cheaper" dead.
18. Form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
20. Say this horse was procured with cost as an independent variable.
21. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position.
 
Just dont run out of Alka-Selzer and we will all be fine:sneaky:
 
So a potential downside of VBR would be not being able to follow cluttered fast moving scenes so well when it is done poorly, and being unable to see a clean image when screen capturing a fast moving scene? Or more getting blocks in shadows and banding on walls?

VBR is not a problem for fast moving scenes, what might give "poor" stills quality is a technique of psychovisual rate distortion. Having downloaded a ton of animation with colour-fill flat areas, not one suffers from the supposed banding or ringing...


Quite frankly, one thing I noticed with people who whine that CBR is "better" than VBR are ones who watch video streams one frame at a time and whine that a 3 pixel wide (of 1920 pixels that the screen takes up) hair is better defined in some static scene in a CBR frame than VBR frame completely failing to notice that that frame stays on screen for all of 1001/24000 of a second at most.

Another fun "fact" is that overly crisp frames are very bad and unnatural for the eye to watch as a sequence of moving pictures, so bad that digital video processing tools actually have ways of dealing with it, e.g.:-

Code:
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.com/ca/video-effects/what-is-when-to-use-motion-blur/

In short, life is way too short to watch video one frame at a time.
 
Last edited:
Did you repeat the test? Just to be sure that the 2 streams were indeed 2 different, not a random situation occurred.

Ok, just to avoid any rumours and misunderstandings, I did a 2nd test, and that's as far as I will go on this matter. I asked for directions where to find those presumably great streams and instead am send to search for myself. o_O

First test was done with the movie "Jolt", now 2nd test with "Fear the walking dead S06E01". Both should be available in many countries in case somebody doesn't believe and wants to try himself. I chose the 2nd because it is not availabve above 1080p, so higher resolution can be ruled out as reason for any differences.

What I skiped in the hurry in the previous post is, that the AP app stores audio and video in seperate files, so it is at least possible to compare just the video streams. Also I stripped off the audio track from the AS file, and now compare video only vs. video only. The Downloaded files from the AP app are stored under "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Local\Packages\AmazonVideo.PrimeVideo_pwbj9vvecjh7j\LocalState\Downloads\"

So here's the outcome of no. 2: The video file from AP app and the video from AS are identical nearly to the byte (3,429 MB each). The difference is a few kb and most likely due to the encryption being present in the one and removed in the other.

My guess is, that for "Jolt" the app did indeed save a 1440p version, but I can't check anymore since I already deleted the file after watching and won't download two versions of it again. The movie sucked BTW if anybody is interested, cannot recommend!

So far until someone finally steps up and tells where to find those fancy CBR videos, they could just as well be a fairy tale.

Now I won't spend any further time digging into this tiring topic. This dead horse will now be assigned to easier tasks suitable for dead horses until it reaches an age sufficient to officially go into the soap factory – erm, I meant retirement! :whistle:
 
It's not like you are turning on a lightbulb in the developer's head about this. We have been told it is under consideration - is that not good enough for people to let it drop?

I think you should mind your own business and let people discuss what they want to discuss. I don't know what are you doing here is this bother you so much.
 
OP here; The point of this thread was not to start a discussion about which one is better (VBR or CBR), but to get this as a functionality within Anystream. Amazon offers both, so imo Anystream should offer the user a choice between the two. Then each user is able to choose the one they want to get.
 
I think you should mind your own business and let people discuss what they want to discuss. I don't know what are you doing here is this bother you so much.
I think you should be a bit more polite to the forum members. Please do not post like that again.
 
OP here; The point of this thread was not to start a discussion about which one is better (VBR or CBR), but to get this as a functionality within Anystream. Amazon offers both, so imo Anystream should offer the user a choice between the two. Then each user is able to choose the one they want to get.
I seriously doubt whether thats going to happen.
 
OP here; The point of this thread was not to start a discussion about which one is better (VBR or CBR), but to get this as a functionality within Anystream. Amazon offers both, so imo Anystream should offer the user a choice between the two. Then each user is able to choose the one they want to get.
I have asked this before without an answer so I'll ask again because I like to know how things work. How do you know AP offers both CBR and VBR for download?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top