Pioneer BDR-2208 (208M) software inconsistency

Discussion in 'CD/DVD/BD Drives' started by Loogs, Apr 25, 2013.

  1. Loogs

    Loogs Member

    Hello,

    I'm curious if there is a compatibility issue with AnyDVD & the Pioneer BDR-2208, or Pioneer drives in general.

    This drive has a software utility which I believe adjusts firmware parameters. I have set the "Advanced Quiet Drive" feature to "Standard", which maximizes speed & ignores noise produced. When placing any blu-ray media in the drive, the rotational noise is thus loud, reading/spinning very fast.

    When reading from blu-ray media with AnyDVD, speeds with this drive range from the snail-paced 8.58 MB/s to a more tolerable 28-29 MB/s. After a few months of use, I will know instantly during software "scanning" if a disc is going one way or the other.

    In the less favorable yet frequent scenario, within the first 1-2 seconds of AnyDVD scanning the disc, the drive's rotational speed instantly drops to a permanent, unwavering crawl, operational noise almost nonexistent. The entire read process is now around 1.5x for what is usually 1.5 hours, 8.58 MB/s every second of the way. I have experimented with timing e.g. having AnyDVD active during drive loading, starting AnyDVD 15 seconds after drive loading; the drive will only throttle when software scanning begins.

    Of course, this scenario suggests the drive is riplocked but other behaviors have me scratching my head. AnyDVD does not always induce an 8.58 MB/s coma. Sometimes the maximized rotational speed & noise will thankfully keep chugging along during scanning & beyond. Some blu-ray discs experience this, some do not, both situations occurring with single-layer, dual-layer, BD+, etc. There is no pattern. The environment does not change, AnyDVD is the only active window during use. The kicker is a disc once read @ expected speed after a fresh reboot, only to be read later on @ the dreaded 8.58 MB/s. I'm clueless.

    In my own experiences with riplocked DVD drives, the rotational speed never wavers, it is always at a crawl pace from drive load to eject with commercial discs.

    I cannot determine if this newer Pioneer drive is plagued by a seemingly hybrid riplock, all user reports appear to be speculation if it does or does not. I've never had a drive with a firmware utility like this one, perhaps it's a new kind of demon. I'm skeptical there may be a misunderstanding between software & hardware, but I could also theorize the drive is responding to AnyDVD's initialization & (occasionally?) riplocking itself.

    I have been denied access to a firmware request by Pioneer, and many months after its release, there has not been an update. One might guess blu-ray drive manufacturers could stop releasing firmware updates altogether & withhold the initial firmware as Pioneer is doing with this drive, denying any chance to observe/modify, unless dumped by other means.

    Any suggestions, experiences or comments to relay concerning Pioneer drives and/or the corresponding utility? It would be glorious if a future AnyDVD revision did not trip this bizarre & inconsistent riplock, although actual cause is unknown. But, with my options limited, I am one 8.58 MB/s read session away from reserving this drive specifically for burning & ordering a suggested WH14NS40 from LG for reading. I cringe at the thought of unnecessary & exorbitant laser use @ 8.58 MB/s.
     
  2. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    No, as AnyDVD does nothing more than read.
    You can use other ways to copy the disc, not AnyDVD's ripper. Like Windows Explorer. Total Commander. xcopy. CloneCD, if you want an iso. Maybe this works better.
     
  3. Loogs

    Loogs Member

    As stated, when encountering the issue, the very second AnyDVD's on-the-fly decryption process begins after drive loading, the drive noticeably throttles in direct response. After this trigger, the drive then remains throttled until ejection.

    Last month or so when the issue began to irritate me, I futilely tried Windows Explorer to copy. There was an initial instance where I reloaded the drive multiple times with the same disc until it was not throttled via decryption. I realized I'd be sacrificing the tray life for laser life, and neither should have to be considered. Although attempted in a few later instances, I have never duplicated this effect.

    I'd especially like to hear input from other Pioneer owners of the same and/or other blu-ray model(s). I will be trying Windows 7 in comparison to XP, as well.

    Regardless of the unknown catalyst, given a "selective riplock", misunderstanding between hardware & software or whatever, I felt it should be documented. As backup hardware is crucial anyway, I will probably be settling for the mentioned LG drive or something comparable, a nominal fee to step away from the unlucky number "8.58".
     
  4. RBBrittain

    RBBrittain Well-Known Member

    Does it rip slowly if you disable AnyDVD HD, then rip to ISO with ImgBurn? (BD encryption doesn't stop you from ripping; it just makes the rip unreadable.)
     
  5. Loogs

    Loogs Member

    I could try this for technical reasons tomorrow morning, but is there a practical perspective, though? I'm not defensive, just curious, as decryption is always the necessary priority.
     
  6. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    You can decrypt the protected iso with .... (drumroll) AnyDVD.
    Or play the protected iso with (drumroll) AnyDVD running.
     
  7. Loogs

    Loogs Member

    RB, as expected, the drive remained throttled until ejection. ImgBurn capped @ 2x after terminating AnyDVD. Unsurprisingly, ImgBurn operating alone read the same dual-layer disc @ 8x.

    James, I am under the impression one of the major reasons to initially decrypt is to create a stable image. Do you not run the risk of a broken or corrupted image from a protected disc without decryption before/during creation? Aren't some protections designed to write corruptions unless acknowledged/bypassed initially?

    I am concerned with the why of these events. You know, to help others reading this the future, point out bugs... No other program I have throttles the drive while reading, which is questionable & why I don't believe it's riplock.

    The BDR-2208 is rated to read single-layer BD-ROM @ 12x & dual-layer @ 8x, roughly 50 & 30 MB/s, respectively. I have never achieved above 30 MB/s with single-layer discs & AnyDVD.

    Is there a MMC/ATAPI command AnyDVD issues to the ODD that would cause it to throttle e.g. speed limiting command? I ask this because when testing virtual images with AnyDVD, processing is noticeably capped @ around 30-35 MB/s for both DVD & blu-ray images, averaging even lower…

    Why is there an overall I/O cap, James? I'm aware I/O limits exist but 35 MB/s should not be questionable for an internally connected SATA HDD with no other heavy transmissions through the SATA controller. 115+ MB/s is possible on this machine processing the same images in ImgBurn or other programs, for example. It seems AnyDVD wants to keep the I/O slow intentionally.

    So, can anyone confirm read speeds with single-layer discs above 30 MB/s in AnyDVD, meeting or exceeding 40-50 MB/s with any drive which supports 10-12x read speeds? Differing I/O performance?
     
  8. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    I don't fully understand the question. But I can tell you, it'll work for HD-DVDs and Blu-ray discs.

    Maybe the riplock only kicks in after authentication?

    Not, if you don't ask AnyDVD to lower read speed.

    If you knew what AnyDVD actually does in the background, you would be very happy how fast it still is.
     
  9. YaniD

    YaniD Well-Known Member

    I have also experienced this 2x ripping speed limit on a Bluray disc with AnyDVD HD and a Pioneer 206, however it was only a single title so not likely a characteristic of the drive. However I don't rip many discs now, so not sure how widespread this is.

    IIRC, some DVDs were created with a special "wobble" in the track that effectively created a riplock over and above any riplock in the drive. I'm wondering if some Bluray are using this technique now.
     
  10. RBBrittain

    RBBrittain Well-Known Member

    This would seem to be a read limit on AACS-encrypted discs built into the Pioneer's firmware, though I couldn't confirm it from Pioneer's specs; as James suggested, AnyDVD HD would trigger it thru AACS authentication. (Edit: Unless YaniD is right and "wobble" riplock has come to BD.)

    OTOH, the tech specs on the LG drive's official page, under "Transfer Rates - Read", specifically say "BDMV (AACS Compliant Disc) - 12x". It might have some other kind of riplock, but definitely NOT this kind. 8) IMO, just buy the LG.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  11. workpermit

    workpermit New Member

    I can confirm that the pioneer 2208 seems to slow down the rip speed on some blurays. Using opti drive control to log the rip speed of a "problematic disk", with anydvd enabled as well as disabled, I found that the 2208 slows down rip speed even with anydvd disabled. The problem is not with anydvd. It is with the pioneer.

    To give some background, I've been using Liteon iHBS112 blu ray drives for ripping blurays. I happen to have 4 of these drives, so I can rip in parallel. While I've generally been happy with the drives, they occasionally "lock up" and fail to open the tray. I got tired of this, and decided to replace them with 4 pioneer 2208's. Very soon, I noticed some odd ripping behavior from the pioneers. So I decided to run some tests.

    I tested ripping speed using one particular "problematic" bluray. The bluray disk was "The Silence of the Lambs: Special Edition", a 40GB DL disk. Using optidrive control, with anydvd enabled, I got a straight 2x rip through the entire rip. A textbook case of riplock. I then disabled anydvd. The speed improved, but not to what it should have been. The rip started at 2x, peaked at 5x, and averaged 3.4x.

    I ran my tests on the problematic bluray with 4 different 2208 drives and found the same result, so I don't think its a specific issue with any particular 2208 sample.

    I ran the same tests on my iHBS112 drives and found they had no problem ripping at my expected speeds.

    I decided to buy 4 LG WH14NS40 drives and ran the same test on them. I found LG's had no problem ripping the problematic disk at the expected speed.

    I also found that the pioneer failed to rip another bluray, which seemed to have a problematic sector at around 17GB. I tried ripping the same bluray using Liteon and LG drives They both succeeded. The Liteon passed, with some slowdown at the 17GB point. The LG with v1.0 firmware passed, with significant slowdown at that point. The LG with v 1.01 firmware passed with essentially no slowdown.

    My conclusion was that the 2208 is not a good choice for ripping blurays. I've returned the pioneers and am sticking with the LG's.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  12. workpermit

    workpermit New Member

    Here are the results:

    Pioneer 2208 with anydvd enabled:
    Transfer_pio_anydvd.jpg

    Pioneer 2208 with anydvd disabled:
    Transfer_pio_noanydvd.jpg

    LG WH14NS40 with anydvd enabled:
    Transfer_LG_anydvd.jpg

    LG WH14NS40 with anydvd disabled:
    Transfer_LG_noanydvd.jpg
     
  13. Tanquen

    Tanquen Well-Known Member

    Late to the thread but found this after having my own BDR-208D issues. It seems to be a drive issue in that is test the readability in some way and slows the drive if it decides the disc is hard to read.

    I often get that 8.5-ish MB/s read speed on discs and I can pause AnyDVD and eject the disc and once reloaded the speed will jump up to 20+MB/s depending on where you are in the disc. That could be seen as a way to trick the riplock if it has any but I’ve taken discs out and cleaned them and then started from the beginning and had the faster speed from the start.

    Also, it seems like most are dual layer so best case (8x dual layer) would be 30-ish MB/s at the end of the rip. I’ve never seen more than high twenties I think.

    If anyone knows of a new unlocked 12x single layer and 8X dual layer Blu-ray or faster let us know.
     
  14. Loogs

    Loogs Member

    My apologies for somewhat abandoning this thread. I actually discovered a rather simple workaround many months ago, and for my personal situation, it resolved the issue in every instance. Tanquen basically mentions the same thing in the previous post, either approach procures the same effect.

    1. Allow AnyDVD HD to decrypt & trigger throttling, then begin ripping as normal
      [*]As throttled ripping continues, manually eject the tray at any time (drive button)
      [*]Close the tray, the drive returns to higher speeds & does not throttle
      [*]Select "Try Again" from the 'sector read' error prompt
      [*]Enjoy the time & drive wear saved
    This manual "reset" of the drive while ripping circumvents the throttling instigated & clearly audible during the moments of decryption. Because the blu-ray does not need to be decrypted again, the possibly AACS-associated flag contained within the decryption script cannot trigger the drive to slow.

    But before any of this, remember the BDR-2208 has its own software utility which allows adjustment for optimization. Via this drive utility, assign "Standard Mode" to Advanced Quiet Drive Feature, and check "Save Advanced Quiet Drive Feature setting to this drive".

    With the recent 7.3.5.0 release, the changelog added "New: Increased performance of I/O subsystem", so perhaps the developers have finally given attention to the bottleneck on their end. I currently set-and-forget most of the time, but I took a peak during a random rip & noticed speeds over 32 MB/s for the first time, somewhere around 39 MB/s. It may have been single layer or maybe it's some other variable involved, but that's conclusive enough for me, as I usually always peaked @ 30 MB/s for either BD type. Tanquen, have you installed this latest version? I will continue to casually look for improvements across other discs & it's a benefit for all if the developers will continue to optimize this bottleneck in their program.

    Also, I have recently begun using my BDR-2208 for dedicated use in a Windows 7 Professional build. Over many dozens of rips, I have never encountered throttling again & have never had to use the hardware trick as was necessary when using the drive in the previous Windows XP Professional build.

    This is more of just a random babble floating around in my head, but it's notable to mention Windows XP was never supplied dedicated UDF 2.5 drivers (which recognize & read blu-ray images). Many use Toshiba's drivers for a workaround. It'd be interested to hear which of you are using this drive with Vista, 7 or 8, which all contain dedicated UDF 2.5 drivers, & are still experiencing throttling after adjustment via drive utility.

    workpermit, thanks for taking the time & providing your results. LG has a new customer for the future, given Pioneer clearly embraces restrictions more prevalently than LG. Depending on the protections of your tested disc, your results as well as those posted elsewhere by others would be conclusive of this. But as previously mentioned, did you optimize the 2208 with the drive utility before conducting tests? The factory default setting is "Quiet" mode for the Advanced Quiet Drive Feature, maybe that was keeping results down? It's more or less gimped out of the box, forcing customers to trust "Quiet" mode to decide what speeds to use & when, even though the box advertises "X" speeds & does not state the firmware needs to be adjusted to obtain said speeds. I would be really curious to see your differences if this is the case, though I could conduct them myself. I have yet to have the BDR-2208 fail to read all sectors on any disc without obvious laser obstructions, personally. After upgrading to Windows 7, I have not had any disappointments with the 2208, but I certainly would buy an LG without hesitation for restriction reasons alone. If you had already adjusted via drive utility, then I am most definitely dismissing Pioneer altogether.
     
  15. Tanquen

    Tanquen Well-Known Member

    My fix was a WH14NS40. :)

    Never used the software utility. Is it a use once for settings or must you have it running?
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  16. fast eddie

    fast eddie Well-Known Member

    May want to check out the latest LG BH16NS40 and with the latest firmware update from LG
     
  17. Tanquen

    Tanquen Well-Known Member

    Why? Same read speeds as the WH14NS40 as far as I can tell.
     
  18. Bluesky5553

    Bluesky5553 Well-Known Member

    Exactly. I tried both of these drives, and ended up buying the WH14NS40 as NewEgg had it on sale for $59 with free shipping. This drive is not riplocked and rips discs quickly and gives good Blu Ray burns. I've been using Lite On drives for many, many years and have not had a bad one. One of my iHBS112-02 drives was getting long in the tooth but still functioning, so I replaced it with the LG after trying both LG's out. The WH14NS40 does everything I need it to, but it's still backup to my Lite On iHBS112-04 drive.
     
  19. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL & Mod

    afaik the WH14 is just as riplocked as the BH14. You just don't notice it due to the increased read speed by default in comparison to eg the bh10. It also uses a different chipset which is the reason riplock can't be removed.
     
  20. Tanquen

    Tanquen Well-Known Member

    Well, I found a few threads that say both are not riplocked and I can only find a few that ask without answers. Both are not listed on the MediaCodeSpeedEdit tool.

    ???

    Both also seem to have the same new firmware:

    1.01-A1

    Change log:

    - Blu-ray Disc Readability Improved

    A little odd mine did not have the new one: 1.01-A1, Released: 2013-04-23
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2013