Passengers and Cinavia

Discussion in 'CloneBD' started by slovell, Mar 17, 2017.

  1. slovell

    slovell Active Member

    CloneBD didn't detect Cinavia on Passengers. I got no detection warning but Cinavia was definitely on the disc.
     
  2. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL & Mod

    Were you in the title preview player? Which audio track was selected? Cinavia is mainly only active on the English track.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P with Tapatalk.
     
  3. slovell

    slovell Active Member

    Title preview, English, HD Master Audio. I tried it in preview and conversion mode and never got a Cinavia warning. I went ahead and converted it with Master HD Audio and Cinavia killed the audio at twenty minutes in. I converted it again with AnyDVD HD set for Cinavia removal with the audio downconverted to 5.1 DD and the 2nd disc played fine but I still never got a Cinavia alert. I should also add that this was a rental disc if that might have something to do with it. It acted strange when I started it up in my Pioneer reader as if it didn't want to read it. I had to try it several times before it finally recognized the disc and started up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  4. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    Same thing happened to me.

    Running the Passengers main movie in the Preview Player of CloneBD for one minute gave no indication of Cinavia, as it normally would. So burned a disc without AnyDVD/CloneBD Cinavia processing and audio muted on the disc at 20 minutes.

    Went back to play the original .iso and noticed that the Redfox icon does turn purple. So not sure why CloneBD did not indicate Cinavia presence.


    T
     
  5. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    It always turns purple when the removal is activated, no matter if Cinavia is actually there or not.
     
  6. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    Maybe the signal is not to be found in the first minute or so.
    It doesn't have to be present throughout the whole movie, it can just as well pop in sporadically.
     
  7. nebostrangla

    nebostrangla Well-Known Member

    It actually pops up the warning on into the movie. I knew it had to have it so I let it play until it did. Being a SONY release.
     
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  8. slovell

    slovell Active Member

    Sneaky devils.
     
    nebostrangla likes this.
  9. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    Ah ok. I understand.

    From what I understood, CloneBD can detect Cinavia in the Preview Player within 30 seconds. I usually run it for a full minute to be sure.

    Wow, this is the very first Cinavia movie I have encountered when it took longer than the first minute for CBD to detect. Kind of ruins the usual test I do. @nebostrangla do you remember about how far in you needed to go for CBD to detect?


    T
     
  10. nebostrangla

    nebostrangla Well-Known Member

    Not exactly. but on in to beginning of movie.
     
  11. ddjmagic

    ddjmagic Well-Known Member

    It's worth always taking a quick look at the back of the Blu-ray case - Sony tend to put the Cinavia logo on the back (Universal/Lionsgate don't much)
     
    nebostrangla and RedFox 1 like this.
  12. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    That's good to know.

    Won't help if you have a rental though. I think slovell had a rental disc.


    If I get a minute tonight, I'll keep running in the Preview til I get the indication.


    T
     
  13. slovell

    slovell Active Member

    It was a rental from Netflix. It acted strange from the start as my Pioneer reader didn't want to recognize the disc. As I said in an earlier post I had to try it several times before it finally recognized the disc and started up. I let it play in preview mode for several minutes and never got the warning for Cinavia. Are they trying something different now?
     
  14. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    @slovell - I had the Netflix rental disc also and was able to play it straight away with no issues. Incidentally I played it on an older Win 7 desktop which of any of my computers is more likely to trip up on new disc formats....

    On testing, I got the Cinavia alarm in CBD at 1 minute 55 seconds. Not a substantially longer time but a longer time nonetheless. So yes, I believe there's something different about Cinavia on this disc from that perspective.

    I guess my Cinavia test will now have to be playing titles in CBD Preview for at least 2 minutes.


    T
     
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  15. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    It's not the first disc to behave like that.

    The reason is really simple: the Cinavia signal can't be embedded everywhere. Some audio sequences are not ideal.
    Especially silence won't work, because Cinavia is a "parasitic" signal, it's not "added" to the audio track, it rearranges the original audio pattern.
    So, clearly, when there's nothing, there will remain nothing.
    The watermark also has a certain duration per block and requires "useful" audio to be present throughout the whole block - if not, then the signal may be present but can't be detected reliably.
    The beginning of a movie tends to have a lot of silence, so that is probably the situation here.

    You don't have to listen for 2 minutes - simply seek to a more "vivid" sequence in the preview player and you should get the message faster.
     
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  16. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    Pete,

    Thanks for explaining what happens "under the covers" with Cinavia.

    Sure makes more sense now why this movie took a little longer for detection. There is a nearly silent passage that starts the movie and lasts for over a minute. Once the audio track gets more active, it doesn't take CBD long to detect the watermark.

    Believe it or not, I always thought CBD was reading ahead through the audio for the entire movie while it shows us the first few minutes in the Preview. Shows how wrong you can be when you don't understand the underlying process.


    This is great, a much more reliable CBD Cinavia test.

    'Cause with a "2 minute" test, if it came back negative, I would wonder if that particular movie would actually need 3 or 4 minutes, etc.

    But using this "algorithm", I'll just jump to a chapter that has active audio straight away and let the Preview play for a minute from there.

    Tested this on Passengers, and it worked just as you suggested.


    Much appreciated!


    T
     
    whatever_gong82 likes this.
  17. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    That would be an absolutely desirable approach, but the mechanics of a Blu-ray drive are such, that this won't work. That would require a lot of seeking forward and backward during playback.
     
  18. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member


    Do you mean it would have to go forward and backward to show video and read audio simultaneously -- or do you mean that the audio data on a Blu Ray is not contiguous, so reading through the whole movie requires a lot of seek movement? Or both?


    T
     
  19. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    Of course, isn't that obvious?
    To read ahead, it would have to "fast forward" through the input while, at the same time, not fast forwarding for the video, so clearly it would have to start reading from two physical positions at once and disc drives are not designed for that kind of use.

    BTW: if you want to simulate what this would be like, simply play back the video and at the same time browse the contents of the disc with Windows explorer. You won't like it ;)
     
    nebostrangla likes this.
  20. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    Yes, true if the audio and video reading are being done at the same time.

    But I thought it might be possible to quickly read and "cache" the data for a few minutes worth of video, then display that while quick scanning through the movie's audio looking for CNV. And when the "cached" video is done, return to reading from the disc. Then you're not reading from two places on the disc at the same time.


    Yes! Believe me I know!

    I've done similar things by accident more than once (like for instance running CBD for conversion while the movie is still playing in a media player) -- and it is not pretty (lol).


    T
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017 at 4:19 AM