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Maybe you should not upgrade to Vista

Discussion in 'Third Party Products' started by James, Feb 10, 2007.

  1. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    1. I will need new hardware to support directx 10.1 features. I won't need new hardware to run the games, but I didn't need new hardware to run any games anyway (it's not as though most games won't also run with directx 9 graphic cards). That's the point.


    "So, although DirectX 10.1 will support current DirectX 10 graphics hardware, today's DirectX 10 hardware will not be able to support all of the features of DirectX 10.1, which includes incremental improvements to 3D rendering quality."

    Consequently, unless some patch is made, currect Directx 10 hardware is obsolete already (many will argue "your hardware was obsolete when you bought it", but other graphics cards, I would argue, lasted longer before they could no longer support new features).

    2. UT3 will look better on PCs that support directx 10 than on consoles.

    3. UT3 console players are going to be running away in fear from good PC players that have Razer Deathadder (or similar mice).
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2007
  2. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    And that's exactly why I go with consoles over PC gaming these days. With a console, I know every 5 years I'm gonna have to upgrade. With a PC, it could be a year, it could be 3 months...you just never know. While you don't NEED to upgrade, you're feeling compelled to in order to get the very latest graphical goodness. :)

    Right, ok, and how many PCs have directx 10 graphics and Vista to take advantage of it? According to Valve...not a lot.

    Ohhhh, now you just got on my bad side! :D You are QUITE ignorant on this one, my friend. LOL! Your Razer Deathadder mouse (or similar) can and will be used by me...on my PS3. You honestly think I'm playing UT on a freaking game pad?!?!? Um, no! KB/M for me, thanks. And it's cross platform with mod downloads, so, there's really no loss by playing it on a console vs pc. All the PC snobs are claiming they're going to own all PS3 players. That's certainly one scenario, but, with KB/M support, I have another scenario for you...it's called 1080p 50" LCoS. ;)

    P.S. Anyone reading this and thinking that we're seriously going at each other, just remember that we're kidding each other in all fun. I know Webslinger likes DX10.x and PC gaming and I respect that. I like PC gaming, as well, I just don't have the funds to put together a good machine for it right now. So, I tease him about it. LOL! I doubt, however, that I'll EVER convince him to try some console gaming. That means he has to wait for Halo3 and Gears of War. He'll get em eventually, but, man how it sucks to have to wait. GRIN
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 27, 2007
  3. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    from http://news.softpedia.com/news/Forg...0-1-Preview-for-Windows-Vista-SP1-61398.shtml

    "Microsoft estimates that in excess of 10 million gamers have upgraded to Windows Vista just to reek in the benefits of DirectX 10. The latest statistics from Redmond reveal that Vista sold over 60 million licenses from January 30. "

    I haven't seen anything come close to the Razer Deathadder for console players (and that mouse is supported via pc drivers). You may have mouse support--but you can't get anything with that amount of control:

    visit http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1300293&page=5

    All laser mice fail horribly in that comparison.

    As an aside, I was considering getting the new Razor Diamondback 3G, but they are ambidextrous (and likely won't feel as good, and I think the side mouse buttons are probably much better on the Deathadder, despite having two less buttons overall).

    I didn't say that. What I mean is good (and I'm being very picky here) hardware mice for the PC with pc drivers walk all over what you can get access to. Also, the deathadder mouse supports 1000mhz polling through the drivers.

    And while it's possible, I still haven't seen anything come close to the Logitech G15 keyboard for console players. Recording up to 54 macros accessible by a single keystroke makes a lot of gaming much easier.

    And what makes you believe PC gamers can't also play on 50" HD screens?

    But you do have a nice TV, yes.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2007
  4. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    404 - page not found We’re sorry, but there is no SoftPedia Web page matching your entry.
    It is possible that you typed the address incorrectly, or that the page no longer exists.

    You may wish to try another entry or to use the above search engine, which we hope will help provide you with the information you need.

    Well that's not fun! LOL


    Ah, ok, I'll give you that one then. However, even if I was playing on a PC, I wouldn't have one available. Yea, they're nice, but, I won't be spending the money on one in either case.

    What?! You PC gamers plug your PC's into a TV?!?! What about refresh rate and "CRT's offer better resolution"?!??! :D No TRUE PC gamer would waste their time with a run of the mill HDTV. LOL!!!
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 27, 2007
  5. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator


  6. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    MACROS?! Oy...yea, that CAN be done, but, I question whether it should be or not. It's like autoaim for gamepad users...yea, they do it, but, I don't think that's a good idea, either. Don't get me wrong here...I've been a PC gamer since the days of the Vic20, so, I've certainly been around the block a few times on hardware. :) However, I just can't keep up with how fast things move in the PC world anymore. Every 3 months they're coming out with newer and faster hardware. No, you don't need to buy a new machine every 3 months to keep up, but, anything over a year to 18 months old in the PC world is mostly considered out of date by gaming standards. I know that on a console that the hardware is good for 5 years. And while it may not be the latest and greatest, it provides a darn good experience IMO. There are DEFINITELY certain game genre's that I feel don't translate well to a console, but, it's POSSIBLE they could, eventually. The KB/M support for UT3 on the PS3 is a good first step. Now give me a RTS game that has that and we're getting closer. So I do understand your reluctance to try console gaming....I definitely get it. I just can't personally justify the PC hardware cost anymore...
  7. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    I got mine for slightly under $50 U.S. They aren't super expensive. They do tend to cost more in the UK or Europe (where I believe esreality is located).

    Some do . . . Some have huge monitors as well . . .

    8ms response time or less is usually fine.

    Refresh rate is important--but after 70 fps, it doesn't really matter (I don't want to get into an argument about this; I've seen 20 page threads on refresh rates and frames per second where PC gamers were arguing endlessly). Most people are fine at 45 fps.
    No one I know uses a CRT. Most pc gamers are playing on 19"-26" LCDs now (and the big switch is to widescreen . . . but some older games don't support widescreen resolutions, so people fiddle with their drivers, etc.).
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2007
  8. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    That's interesting. So we'll need hardware support to take advantage of the new DX10.1 library and then games that are programmed to also take advantage of it. IOW, I can worry about that in a year or two at the earliest I think. I'm likely going to replace my laptop next year once a few new technologies are out and I may consider looking into a machine that can handle gaming. (Most important features of a new laptop to me are HD video, of course ;)) Hopefully NVidia gets their act together and provides better Vista drivers. They're getting there, yes, but, they still have a ways to go compared to their XP drivers. It's unfortunate that it's taking both ATI and NVidia so long to "get it right". We'll see what the market for laptops looks like next year when I'm ready to drop some cash on a new one. If DX10.1 hardware is available in a price I can afford, I'll consider it.
  9. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    That's not TOO bad I suppose. But, it's corded, and, well, I don't do cords even for gaming mice. I know, I know. Don't even start with me on that one! :) Yes, I'm probably going to get my @$$ handed to me, but, it'll still be fun as all hell. I LOVE the UT games and can't wait. And currently, for me, the PS3 is the most powerful machine in my house.

    I thought this was still a big complaint in the gaming world and that most hardcore gamers were STILL using CRTs due to what they consider "problems" with LCD technology? *I* personally love LCDs and have never had a problem gaming on mine. (I got a decent Sony with an excellent refresh rate so ghosting isn't an issue for me). I find it interesting that the gaming community at large is finally accepting LCDs. That's a good thing IMO. Of course, they now want to change the connection type from DVI to whatever that new standard is that's starting to come out. I forget what it's called but they claim it's even better than HDMI. And at the res that some of these high end PC gamers are pushing these days, they're going to need the bandwidth!!! Anything over 1920 is insane IMO. But, if they can do it, and they are, all the more power to them!!
  10. DrinkLyeAndDie

    DrinkLyeAndDie Retired Moderator

    I'm pretty sure you pointed this out once before when we talked about DirectX 10.1 but the more I've thought about things... of course Microsoft would say that and notice that really important word: estimates. They probably stretched it a bit and the real number is lower.

    It's been ages since I read something that Gabe Newell discussed but I remember lots of talk about video cards and new technology back when the first Nvidia Geforce 3 was released. In the end I have to take the figures taken from Valve more to heart than anything Microsoft is going to say. Hell, Microsoft wants people to upgrade to Vista. Of course they are going to exaggerate! Valve, on the other hand, has no real reason to skew the figures, IMHO.
  11. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    Yeah, some basically cheat using macros. It's an ethical dilemma. :)

    Consoles are definitely more cost effective. And some consoles have excellent games that aren't ported to the PCs (or PC players have to wait a few years for an emulator--and then the roms or files to play on the emulators). I've also seen horrible translations/console to PC ports. Console gaming is fun (and probably undoubtedly more cost effective), but I would still argue the best gaming experience (PC games can be more complex; I doubt I will ever see NeverWinter Nights 2, for example, on a console--or something that allows players to create really complex games) is to be found on a PC (if you can afford it).
  12. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    The problem is that 60 million licenses != 60 million Vista DX10.x gamers. How many of those licenses are sold to OEMs and are not yet sold to people actually USING them? How many of those licenses are in machines that are used for gaming? With DX10.x hardware? That's all unknown. I won't even try to estimate. Could be high, could be low. We just simply don't know. Valve says it's on the lower side. Given how steam works I'm likely to trust their estimates fairly well. There is one definite...things WILL improve for Vista gaming over time. Eventually it'll hit critical mass and that's a good thing. I'm just not convinced it'll be this year.
  13. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    A lot of people do prefer wireless. I'm extremely picky, and a lot of wireless mice go into a very brief standby mode (that's not so brief to me--but I'm picky) to save on battery power. The response time to wake up the mouse is noticeable to me (I'm talking about wireless Logitech gaming mice here, actually), but it won't bother most people. Also, I hate replacing batteries--and I hate recharging things.

    Nah. A lot of kids will be playing UT3--and most don't know what mice to use etc. But the best PC player using good hardware should almost always smoke the best console player (once excellent mice/keyboards start being developed for console players that may change).

    No. That was an issue at one time, due to response times, but that's no longer an issue (no ghosting). Again, I know of no serious PC gamer using a crt. Greg Vederman, the editor of PC Gamer magazine in the U.S. bought a nice widescreen LCD monitor several months ago and blogged about it on the PC
    Gamer website.

    Even my 17" widescreen notebook uses a native resolution of 1920x1200. Gaming on it is fine.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2007
  14. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    Cheating has ALWAYS been a problem in gaming especially on the PC since the beginning. Just something we have to deal with. The bots used to really p!$$ me off, though. I hated that nonsense. (I'm referring to the autoaiming/kill bots that some idiots used). They're getting better at detecting that kind of stuff, but, there will always be the idiots trying to get around it and use those things. Consoles do make that harder, but, not impossible.

    I won't argue that if you have a *GREAT* high end PC, that gaming is obviously going to be the best platform. Consoles put everyone on a level playing field which is somewhat good. And as I said, there are some PC games that can't be done well on a console...yet, but, I think we're getting close to seeing that happen. I mean, consoles have GIGS of hard drive storage and now have KB/M support. There's not much they couldn't do now on a console if they chose to. (Even NWN2 COULD be done...will it? Who knows). I do miss some aspects of PC gaming, though. But, consoles do a decent job and I've mostly accepted that's where gaming lies for me these days. After 20 years of PC gaming, I'm ok with it. :)
  15. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    I don't mind the recharging considering I get the benefits of wireless. Even in Doom3 and HL2 on my laptop(ok, ok, I admit it...I still do the occasional PC gaming when I have hardware that can run it! :)) I had zero problems with lag on wireless. I was honestly surprised, but, then I use logitech gear exclusively so it's not that shocking that it works. I've not noticed the wake up time in games that you're referring to. I know the issue, just have never personally experienced it.

    THAT is going to be an issue. There are going to be a ton of kids on PS3's that have never played a UT game before in their life. Good thing we can separate the gamepad users from the KB/M users using filtering of game types. I'll stick to the KB/M games when I play online I think. I A> don't wanna hear whining that KB/M users are cheating and B> don't wanna deal with the autoaim crap of gamepad users. I'm not afraid to take on PC users mouse to mouse. If I lose, I lose, but, I'm not afraid of the competition. :)

    GOOD! I'm glad they finally got over that. My Sony is 8ms and I've never had problems with it. A good samsung or sony LCD should work great as a gaming screen. Plus it saves energy and gives you more desk space for the kick @$$ klipse or altec lansing speaker systems every gamer should have. ;)

    Mine, too. I play at 1280 on my laptop though as it's slightly underpowered for gaming. My next one won't be.
  16. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    I would also be more inclined to believe Valve than Microsoft. However, not everyone who plays HL2 represents the entire directx 10 PC Gaming community.
    I did not buy HL2. I did buy HL1 and hated it (sacrilegious, I know). Both of these games do not currently offer directx 10 features.

    Also, considering Valve hasn't released anything that supports Directx 10 yet (Half Life Episode 2 comes out Oct. 10--and other than Lost Planet what games are offered by Steam that support DirectX 10 at the moment), why would people with DirectX 10 hardware be running to Steam right now anyway? After the Orange Box is released, then maybe . . .

    I am not a hardcore first person shooter player. But I am a fairly big PC gamer. I have never used (and God willing, never will) Steam.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2007
  17. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    I actually like Steam. It's not bad. However, I will NEVER buy Bioshock on Steam as they allowed some serious stupidity on that one. Doesn't Bioshock support DX10? And even though it's not a Valve game, they are distributing it on Steam. In any case, originally I thought Steam was a stupid idea, but, after buying HL2 on it, I have to say I really like it. Download anywhere, play once is a decent concept.
  18. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    Yes. The game came out on August 21st. So unless Steam was conducting polls after August 21st, then . . .

    My copy of Bioshock just arrived today actually. But I probably won't be playing it until sometime next week. I pre-ordered. Had I know about the nonsense that was pulled, I would have probably never ordered.

    2Kgames really dropped the ball with the copy protection and activation nonsense. Visit http://pcgamer.com/

    Despite all that, Bioshock is receiving the best reviews of any game so far this year:
  19. DrinkLyeAndDie

    DrinkLyeAndDie Retired Moderator

    Of course not. But it is a small slice of it. Think of it as a snapshot of a very big city. In this case you are simply taking a picture of one cafe.

    Yes, but what about people who already have a DirectX 10 card and also play other games? Steam is able to see what percentage of people are using DirectX 10 cards regardless of the game they are playing, AFAIK. So, while not every gamer uses Steam they are getting a group to sample from.

    I like all kinds of games but the original UT will probably remain my favorite for years to come. I was born to play that game. Other games I'm just not as good at. I'm definitely into other kinds of games, as well, but I always need at least one good FPS in installed other than UT to blow off some steam when I'm stressed. And, come on, tell me when you are playing UT and in a bad mood that hearing, "Headshot!" doesn't make ya smile and grin like a kid at Christmas [or whatever Holiday people celebrate at that time of year depending on their religion, etc]. ;)

    I've never wanted to hassle with Steam from all I've read and seen. However, now with the release of BioShock and F'ing insanity of the limitations of installation I'd contemplate purchasing it through Steam if I get more freedom.
  20. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    Trust me, I'm well aware of all the controversy surrounding Bioshock. While it's true it's *NOT* a rootkit, it's still p!$$ing people off. I mean, DRM'ing your demo?! Come on now. And this whole activation nonsense is beyond ridiculous. They upped it to 5 times now. WOW! That solves everything!! MORONS. How many people are going to uninstall the damn thing before they reinstall the OS? Yea, I hate to say it, but, I'm thinking this is another area where the Xbox 360 version wins. ;) I put the thing in, and I play. Period.