Lifetime licenses? Why keep them?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Sabertooth, Mar 6, 2016.

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  1. jim2664258

    jim2664258 Well-Known Member

    Understand. Honestly I think the concept of a lifetime license is a mistake for any software company to keep its long-term viability. It might make sense to do something like have a yearly subscription for offline updates to the OPD, for instance. That is a tangible, new benefit worth paying for (well to me anyway) and makes for an option of ongoing revenue while honoring lifetime licenses that do not include this benefit. Perhaps you guys can come up with some other benefits to package into a yearly subscription too - and that would also drive new optional features to the products and make them even better.

    In any event, the RedFox guys are clearly going to do what they think is best for themselves and that's how it should be. I think if they wanted any specific feedback here they would just ask for it.
  2. poppywood

    poppywood Well-Known Member

    REDFOX 1... you and your staff have always done right for us... I believe its our turn to do right for you.. This particular sector of software has a built in risk. Do whats needed for your staff, you, and the software. The rest of us will follow or not...

    I, myself, will be on board again. If the same results happen again, I will again purchase another ticket for the trip.......
    RedFox 1 and eviltester like this.
  3. Recycle

    Recycle Well-Known Member

    Hey let's not knock LTL license holders I am one of them and going after us because of what happened from AACS or now that Slysoft is RedFox shows lack of respect and ethics here. If you have problems complain to AAC-LS about it. Just my reading so far only tells me alot of people are making speculations and targeting LTL holders for no good reasons only serves the bidding of AAC-LS and what they are trying to do. Want to be constructive then be constructive....attacking LTL holders shows utter dis-respect. Keeping down this route and I'll ask the MODs to close such discussions.
  4. TM2-Megatron

    TM2-Megatron Well-Known Member

    I don't think anyone in this thread is "going after", attacking, or blaming lifetime license owners for anything. I'm a lifetime license owner, myself. I'm just questioning whether or not lifetime licenses for AnyDVD should be something RedFox offers in the future or not. Arguments for either case are welcome in this thread. Personally, I feel that in the interest of future development and taking into account that the team will no longer be backed for a company or relatively wealthy CEO, moving to a "perpetual license" system is more feasible to keep food on their tables and the necessary tools for fighting the AACS-LA in their hands. I feel that there should at least be a small fee for continued access to updates over the years, which could be implemented in any number of ways suggested in this thread.
  5. My Life Is Tech

    My Life Is Tech Well-Known Member

    From what I have read thus far, I heard of the suggestion of a fee per disc... I mean no disrespect to the original poster, but imo, this is a terrible idea, at least to me. Especially when I have to re-rip the same disc for whatever reason, due to an error with the reading/ripping, accidentally keeping the protection when I wanted to remove it, removing the wrong region code, etc, etc. I know however this could be remedied where the fee is once on the one disc. But still, I absolutely despise this idea. Imagine if you have 1000+ DVDs and Blu-rays, of which some people have... It gets more expensive than a subscription service. Not to mention it would also require an internet connection. And what if Redfox ever goes out of business as well? Then how would you rip any discs if you have to pay to rip them?

    I do however agree completely with TM2-Megatron's suggestion of a "perpetual license" system. It's basically the same thing I've mentioned before in another post. Where you purchase the license key, it's good for say, a year or two, and you can download the latest program update and OPD up to the point when you key expires. This way, offline activation can be kept, and the key can work indefinitely for THAT version of the program and database to the date the key expired. Any updates after that point will require purchasing a new key.

    I don't agree with the idea of the database being an in-app purchase, and here's the reason. It would require an internet-connection for AnyDVD to download it. Not good for strictly offline-based machines. Instead, I would suggest to have it available as a separate download completely. But maybe add a link to it in the program. Maybe there could be a separate license key for the database, and once you have that key, you can download the database independently of AnyDVD and it would come with its own installer. It could have the same perpetual licensing scheme as the program.

    Also, I don't really care how big the database is, as I have plenty of HDD space, and I can get more. As long as I know my investments are safe and sound, without requiring internet.

    This is only my hope of what will happen....
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  6. HomerGB

    HomerGB Guest

    If the original owner made a fortune from the old license system then why can't James and crew do the same, that includes offering LTL's etc., over time there are enough users out there to make RedFox a good living, its patently obvious that they have a huge following.

    I read a lot here about members personal finances indicating that buying a license every one or two years wouldn't be a problem for them but that doesn't mean everybody can afford to do the same.

    Personally for me LTL's are a good thing and perpetual or even annual licences would be a no no.

    I think It's time now we should all sit still, be patient and wait for the good news from James and team which I hope is very soon...
  7. antipodes

    antipodes Well-Known Member

    I am starting to resent the persistent undermining of the LTL concept I did not opt for LTLS only because they appeared to offer savings but they also were more efficient both for Slysoft and myself because they eliminated the need for renewal reminders. I don't know if Slysoft sent reminders to restricted license holders but doing so is an added cost which LTL holders have not imposed on management. Nevertheless some sort of donation is warranted to recover start up costs and to reimburse staff who are owed money. I support an additional payment or donation because I don't like the idea of the costs of creating Redfox getting mixed up with the every day development costs of the programs sold by Redfox. Let it be noted that I am quite prepared to acquire new licenses if requested to do so but in my case I don't think an LTL could be actuarialy justified
    eviltester likes this.
  8. BrianG61UK

    BrianG61UK Well-Known Member

    I'm sure there would be some way to locally cache the fact that you'd already paid for a particular disk. But even so I don't know how well the idea would go down.

    Brian G. (In the UK)
  9. teragor

    teragor Well-Known Member

    I would gladly re-purchase anything to help out ! just to continue growth year after year. but I have one question. does elby own clonebd ? could you explain this for me and how it may work. I thought it was two different companies not one... I would gladly help that cause as well year after year. I just need it clarified so I understand ? email me here ! or place it on the forum. thanks!!!!!!:unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure:
  10. mike20021969

    mike20021969 Well-Known Member

    CloneBD is Elaborate Bytes software. They develop it and also sell the license keys for it.
    And yes, it is a different company.
    eviltester likes this.
  11. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your support. This is absolutely a discussion on the merits where all opinions are welcome but where those opinions may be respectfully challenged.

    I'm so sorry that somehow you feel threaten by a discussion on the merits. We are only talking about the models for licensing. It absolutely has no bias toward any particular scheme (I intentionally played devil's advocate). You're comments and support for the lifetime licensing model are as welcome as any ones are but, as I stated, this is a discussion on the merits meaning that people can disagree and the idea is to hear the actual arguments in support of or not. Please contribute your ideas and opinions knowing that just because I may not agree with you and say so that it in no way means I don't like you. If you feel I've made statements that are too personal then by all means call me on that, I won't be hurt or offended as long as you're not making a personal attack and give a reasonable reason for the way you feel. Just because we may not be singing cum by ya in this thread, do not make the mistake that we aren't all together in this.

    As long as you state your arguments against the idea and not the person as you did, that is fine. By stating your reasons for opposition, you also strengthen the arguments of the poster since they can tailor their idea based on your feedback. So, really, thank you for your feedback. This is how good concepts come about.

    This is a sensitive subject so, while I understand that there are strong feelings, please understand if I ask that you keep your resentment to yourself. Your statement of your arguments was more than adequate in support of how you feel and are strong enough to stand on their own (plus there's a lot of support on your side of the argument). Please continue to discuss the issue on the merits and without expressing resentment toward any one or any ones ideas.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  12. RedFox 1

    RedFox 1 Super Moderator

    Its a great discussion and I am sure the people who will ultimately make the decisions will take everyone's opinion and evaluate the pros and cons. The customers mean a lot to this company even if you bought a lifetime licence and never need support, you are important to them. They appreciate the loyal customers and in the end they know that if a customer is happy with a product they will tell their friends, as far as licencing goes they have a lot of experience, over 14 years worth. A happy customer is an asset, they know this. So I can say without knowing what they will do, that they will take all of the interaction of the whole 14 years and make a decision that they think will benefit everybody.
  13. NOKNOT

    NOKNOT Well-Known Member

    So far there has not been to much hate going on so Ill through my two cents in. I own a Lifetime license of AnyDVD-HD. Everyone that owns a lifetime license would like to think they would honor that even if we were charged another license fee. All anyone can do is hope. But the fact is this, its a business venture for whoever is trying to start this up, plain and simple. The bottom line is they will determine what the most they can charge and how they can charge it without loosing alot of customers. Thats what business is about. They are not going to say whats the least we can make and still keep going. They have far more invested than us. We are consumers, that in all reality can live without this software. To them it will be their source of income and lively hood and thats how it should be. They in all reality do not owe me anything and the same goes for me and in fact all consumers we do not owe them anything. They provided a service that we paid for,thats it. This is a great software and if I think its reasonable to purchase again I will, if not I wont and I believe most people will agree with that.

    My only concern is this, and I have mentioned it before, which some people dont like to hear. When you look at a company like DVDFab, you see alot of products being offered that helps supplement their income. In case one product is slow selling maybe another will pick up the slack. Also they are continually updating and adding features which attract customers. Please understand, Slysoft products are good, but in all honesty they have not been updated or new features added to them in years except to get them to work on new operating systems, except AnyDVD and AnyDVD-HD. Some will say, they work so whats the big deal. The big deal is that the consumer for whatever reasons like to see some development going on with the software they have purchased just to show the developers are still interested in it. With that being said I hope for, but I dont see AnyDVD and AnyDVD-HD bringing in enough revenue to offer lifetime licenses.
  14. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Well-Known Member

    We're not actually sure he did make a fortune, we just don't really know. If they can make a fortune then as you suggest the status quo will be maintained and nothing to do but for you to wait. On the other hand, if that model isn't so good we wouldn't want to see it adopted if it will only lead to the demise of the company later.

    I can't speak for Dr. Feelgood but I think the idea may be that once you decrypted a disc you would receive that discs information added to your local cache for a fee. Decrypting after that is from the local cache and so no fee. IOW, one disc ID, one fee.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I received notification of every new major version from Slysoft now Redfox. Couldn't the renewal be added to that at little additional cost? Additional payment? Donations? Ah, you are more flexible than you let on. ;-)
  15. My Life Is Tech

    My Life Is Tech Well-Known Member

    And hopefully that cache could be backed up and transferred to another PC. Though I still hope they don't go for a per disc purchasing route. That's like saying I've already bought a game for a console for $50, but then I have to pay another dollar to the console to play the game I already bought and paid for. I'd much rather the perpetual idea, to me, that's one of the most ideal solutions.
  16. bluemanta

    bluemanta Member

    Just joining this thread...I read through most of the posts although not all so I apologize if I'm repeating some of the stuff...

    The notion of lifetime license should be looked at as a perk given to a customer who is willing to shell the cost of 5 years upfront. There is nothing wrong with keeping it as an option.

    It is not that bad from the developers perspective if the numbers works - and that's a big IF.
    For example, if you sell 5,000 lifetime licenses per year x $100 that's $500k per year. One way to control the stream of revenue is by offering a limited time to purchase lifetime licenses or limited number of licenses per year....

    We can sit here and speculate all day and all night... but without knowing the real numbers...all these speculations would be useless.

    Additionally, there will always be a percentage of customers who would prefer to pay annually which would create an additional stream of revenue every year.
    Annual subscriptions are already popular among many software companies such as antivirus, cloud storage etc...

    Personally, just like Sabertooth mentioned previously, I already got my monies back using AnyDVD/HD since 2008. I will probably support the new venture with whichever payment model they choose.

    But that's not the point. The point is that customers who already purchased lifetime license expect and deserve to be honored. It's an ethical issue.
    That being said, I'm sure everyone will be more than happy to make donations to help the new team/company get off the ground but it has to be kept as optional choice for lifetime license holders.

    Just my 2 cents....

  17. malves

    malves New Member

    For those with money so all hell bent on paying by all means do pay, donate, etc. It is your right to spend all your money as you see fit. But do know I am on a fixed income and use the software for my specific purpose. I own LTL's for AnyDVD and AnyDVDHD if a major version such as AnyDVDUHD has an LTL offer I will consider buying it as well if I can afford it. As far as compensation for all staff I'm sure mutually agreed shares for payment are being negotiated so if and when a major UHD version is released all monies will get to them deservedly.
    Recycle likes this.
  18. GuyG

    GuyG Well-Known Member

    As a user, I would much rather buy a lifetime license than pay a subscription.
    I probably would not have bought AnyDVD or AnyDVD HD at all if there was no lifetime option, and I'd prefer to buy another AnyDVD UHD lifetime license if/when that product exists.

    Paying per-disc is absolutely not an acceptable solution to me.
    I would prefer a subscription to that.

    If lifetime licenses are out, the model that I think would work best is paying an initial cost, say $100, with yearly "maintenance fees" of $20.
    That $100 license grants you lifetime access to all films released up to and including the year of purchase.
    So $100 today gets you a "2016 lifetime license"

    If you want access to 2017 releases, you need to buy a "2017 maintenance license".
    That extends your lifetime license to include 2017 titles.

    I don't know how you would handle it if someone skips a year.
    I've seen companies do it three ways:
    1. You need to buy every license that you missed. So if I went from 2016 to 2020 it would cost me $80.
    2. Lapsed subscriptions are more expensive, but have a flat fee. So a lapsed subscription might be $50 - which would encourage people to keep paying $20 yearly instead.
    3. You can pick up a lapsed subscription at any time, paying the standard rate. So I could go from 2016 to 2020 for the standard $20, because I'm buying a <=2020 maintenance license, not a 2020-only license.
    #3 actually seems to work well for some companies, as I've seen people pick up these subscriptions again after 4 or 5 years, rather than not at all.

    With these still being "lifetime" licenses, you would still be able to offer an offline database option.
    I really hope that you are still planning to release a version of AnyDVD HD which does not require the OPD, or has the option to pull down a local copy of it, because I'm not sure that I'm willing to pay much if it's still reliant on a server which could disappear at any moment.
    When the DNS servers disappeared for the OPD, I was left with 10-15 recent purchases that I couldn't access at all because they weren't cached. (either hadn't been in the system, or were titles that AnyDVD doesn't cache)
    If that had been it for AnyDVD and it was gone forever, I would no longer be able to purchase discs without worrying about whether they would work at all - even if they were older discs and not new releases. I would probably have stopped buying Blu-rays.
  19. Recycle

    Recycle Well-Known Member

    Agreed...making assumptions about LTL holders does as I mentioned before a dis-service to LTL user and your on the side of AACS by making such claims to know why LTL buyers buy LTL to start with.
  20. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Well-Known Member

    I have some more comments about Lifetime Licenses. This is assuming that our current lifetime license was with the now defunct Slysoft and is void, that isn't officially the case. I feel that there is a certain critical mass where Lifetime Licenses can work but it all depends on the number of active subscribers and the size of the staff and operating budget. My feeling is that $5,000,000 (5 million dollars) might work for the size of the operation. That would be sizable enough to generate income (through the stock market at around a 7% long term return) sufficient to cover the basic expenses and salaries. Of course, the stock market has it's own risks and that's a lot of money to handle if you're not good with that but that's aside from the point. So, at $100 for a lifetime license, that would mean some 50,000 active licenses. Even then I think they would still have to continue to sell at least in the thousands after that to actually make any money. That seems like a lot of licenses to me but some software sells in the millions so maybe I'm way off. Once they cover basic operating expenses and salaries, then they can afford to be more generous with the end user too.

    You expressed this sentiment before but I honestly don't understand what you mean. Can you clarify for me what assumptions are we making that represent a dis-service to LTL users (other than the obvious possibility that such lifetime license is no longer offered if not financially viable)? And how does discussing viability of the financial/income model of the new company play into the "Evil Empires" (AACS) hands?

    While I'm sympathetic to your personal financial situation, I don't understand why you think the new venture should consider it in it's deliberations about what model to adopt to be financially stable? Hey, I'm an admitted gigantic cheapskate. I never buy anything for full retail and I might wait up to a year to get something "on sale" at a price I like. Getting a dime more from me is like ridiculous but I don't see how I benefit if these guys adopt a licensing model that's doomed to fail. That said you and others in your situation deserve a voice in the discussion, I'm just not sure what kind of impact that should or will have on the new managements deliberations.
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