Incredibles 2 ATMOS

Discussion in 'CloneBD' started by SamuriHL, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    It's still definitely a typical "Disney" problem - those cutouts are exactly at clip-transitions. So that should make finding the cause a little bit easier.
     
  2. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    Yea, if it was just this one title I wouldn't be pushing so hard to get it fixed but it impacts quite a few others, as well. Ralph Breaks the Internet is the latest one I've seen. And the thing is, NOTHING rips them correctly. I've tried competing products just to see how they handle it and nothing out there rips these correctly as of yet. So if this gets fixed, it'd be a good thing for CloneBD. :)
     
  3. coopervid

    coopervid Moderator

    @SamuriHL ,

    I did some research and the dropout issue with ATMOS seems to be linked to bitstreaming ATMOS from MKV files where the UHD is based on seamless branching. Now here comes the question: Is there any software out there that creates MKVs that don't show this issue in that constellation?

    EDIT: You just answered my question while I was typing :sneaky:
     
  4. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    Yea, nothing outputs it correctly. Although that's not entirely accurate. Someone on here I forget who it was extracted the video track and subs with CloneBD and then extracted the ATMOS track separately using eac3to and muxed it with MKVMerge and that supposedly created a properly playable ATMOS MKV from these foolish titles.
     
  5. coopervid

    coopervid Moderator

    How about making a "movie only UHD" first and then converting this one big m2ts file to MKV? Have you ever tried this 2-step approach?
     
  6. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    No I haven't. I'm also curious if playing back the one big m2ts as a file would show issues. I guess I can try and see what it does.

    EDIT: That was a dumb assumption we had! LOL It doesn't create a single m2ts. I just masters all the clips individually. So that was no help.

    EDIT2: I used a competing product and output a single m2ts from the protected ISO I made of this disc. The m2ts plays perfectly with no drops. I'm now MKVToolNix'ing that single m2ts into an MKV and will test that. I suspect it'll play fine but you never know.

    FINAL EDIT: Yup, that worked perfect. I'm going to let it play for a bit and see if audio stays in sync but so far no audio drops and it's playing perfectly.

    @Pete I'll send you instructions on what I did so you can maybe compare the output if that helps.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  7. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    FFS. Audio gets out of sync pretty quickly. It's delayed by almost half a second. What IS it with these stupid tracks?! So much for that thought.

    And the m2ts is perfectly in sync no issues at all. WTF is with this? Is it getting corrupt being stored in the MKV container????
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  8. coopervid

    coopervid Moderator

    Sorry! I was mistaken and thought of that competing product. But you figured it out fortunately. I guess it's either the MKV file format or still an issue with the LAV filters. But I don't use MKV. So no clue how to narrow it down further.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  9. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    It's not an issue with LAV. Nev basically took what the MS movie app is outputting and used that to fix the remaining bugs in ATMOS support. The SHIELD also exhibits the issue, and that has nothing to do with LAV. It's POSSIBLE it's an MKV container issue but I'm not sure about that. I'm trying one last thing with the competing product. It just finished so I'll go check it now.
     
  10. coopervid

    coopervid Moderator

    Just an idea that came to mind...Maybe stupid.

    Compress the main movie UHD to say 25GB m2ts file with ATMOS. Video is most likely pretty bad (sh.tty). Convert to MKV so to make sure bandwith is not the limiting factor. Test MKV if dropouts still happen or not. Background: High video bitrate combined with high audio bitrate and "glueing parts of the pieces from seemless branching" might be too much for MKV. If it plays OK without dropouts most likely it's the format limitation of MKV. That should tell that LAV filters can handle ATMOS OK and rule these out if the workload is smaller.

    What do you think?
     
  11. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    Competing solution was able to output an MKV from the protected ISO that seems to be working fine. I'm going to let it run for a bit, but, no drops and audio is in sync. There's a few known spots further along where things can still get messed up so I'll let it run, but, it doesn't look like MKV is an implausible container for this stupid audio track.

    EDIT: Yea, no issues even through the notorious tough sections about 30 minutes into it. Stays in sync, no audio drops. So it can be done. Now we just need Elby to figure it out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  12. coopervid

    coopervid Moderator

    Good analysis SamuriHL. Love it! I don't deal with MKV files but I hope that my ideas to corner the problems were helpful.
    Elby - work is coming your way...
     
  13. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    I give up. Audio completely cut out during the fight with pizza guy. I don't know what the hell the solution is for these movies. I really don't.
     
  14. coopervid

    coopervid Moderator

    So also the competition failed? But much later? Please be specific. And- we never give up, do we?
     
  15. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    What more specific do I need to be? I said what I tried. You have NO IDEA how much effort has been put into this title so far by several of us. If you'd like to try troubleshooting, be my guest, but, even Pete is sick of this title and I don't blame him. I've been dealing with it since it came out and so far NOT ONE PRODUCT OUT THERE can make a fully working MKV backup of it. But telling me "we never give up" considering the HOURS of work that's already gone into troubleshooting this problem doesn't sit well with me right now.
     
  16. coopervid

    coopervid Moderator

    :rockingchair::rockingchair::rockingchair:You are always so considerate but now you are desperate...It somehow resembles my Dolby Vision problem. Nobody seemed to have this issue but me. No. There are fine tweaks that need to be implemented to make the software better, more compatible. And it needs time, efforts and trial and error.
     
  17. coopervid

    coopervid Moderator

    For me the next logical step is to have a software that makes a m2ts with a real seemless combination of the multiple files from a "seemless branch UHD". Did you notice the oxymoron :)?
     
  18. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator

    I'm not desperate, I'm simply done screwing with it. I've put far more time and effort into this issue than what's documented in this thread. I stand by my assertion that NO software out there can rip this title to MKV with perfect playback. If it gets fixed, great. As I said, if this were ONE title I wouldn't be concerned about it but it's a BUNCH of Disney titles all with similar problems with ATMOS. I don't suspect it's going to be LESS of a problem going forward. Elby is the only one even taking this problem seriously. MakeMKV doesn't seem interested in fixing it. DVDFab clearly hasn't fixed it even though it seems slightly better with them than any other solution I've tried so far. But having audio completely disappear in the middle of the movie is not a working solution. And I'm quite frankly tired of working on this issue. Elby has what they need to work on it and troubleshoot it further. Pete and James can repro the issue. I've done enough on this foolish problem.
     
  19. coopervid

    coopervid Moderator

    Fair enough! You still sound tired to deal with the issue. But never give up. I didn't either and it was worth it.

    All this stuff is at the edge. Most of the times there are no real specifications. Sometimes there are workarounds even by some big OEMs. Check Dolby Vision and low latency in Google. Be assured this might not work right now but soon. And we need to give as much and as good input under which circumstances this happens when issues occur. It's a process. It's not perfect now.
     
  20. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    I'm sure, now that it can be reproduced, it will be fixed fast - that is assuming, that it can be fixed and is not an inherent problem when converting a time-stamp based format into a more or less index based one.

    I understand the basic problem with these HD audio formats.

    First there's a general problem with audio and video packets when concatenating multiple clips (Incredibles has a ton of those clip cuts).
    A video frame has a duration of about 41.7ms, an AC3 audio frame has 32ms. Clearly they don't align nicely. If you take 3 digits into account (arbitrary choice), you'll get a perfect alignment (both an audio and a video frame finish at the same time) about every 13.3 seconds.
    So every 13.3s would be an ideal place to cut clips - obviously that's not practical.
    So you always end up with clips containing a number of video frames and some left-over audio from which you'd actually be playing only a fraction of the frame before the next audio frame comes along. They overlap 16ms on average.

    The only way to deal with this when aligning that mess into a linear MKV file, is to throw away packets every now and then. If you don't, the left-overs will sum up and cause lip-sync errors further down (a lot of tools actually do just that - or rather don't).
    CloneBD handles that nicely for AC3 and DTS, which is well understood, but now those nasty HD extensions pop in. There are certain dependencies between individual Atmos packets - no documentation to lay them out. So you can't just throw away packets at will.

    I suppose, that's what Elby have to figure out now...
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
    whatever_gong82, SamuriHL and James like this.