"Disc is region free" ...means what?

Discussion in 'AnyDVD HD (Blu-ray issues)' started by markfilipak, Sep 13, 2018.

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  1. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member


    Ok, then I didn't understand what James said and I'm as confused as ever.

    I thought what I said was what James meant by this...



    T
     
  2. markfilipak

    markfilipak Well-Known Member

    Well, the only way these can both be correct is if PowerDVD doesn't give a ratF**k what the disc is, but only whether the optical drive is happy (or the optical drive returns an error). Am I right?
     
  3. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    No, he actually got it 100% right. The player doesn't check anything by itself (except for lending its CPU to the disc's code to execute on).

    No. The code on the disc will query the player's region code and then either

    Code:
    if(player_code equals "A") then play the movie, else show the bad region card
    or
    Code:
    if(player_code equals "B" or "C") then play the bad region card, else play the movie
    There is no way a player could wiggle itself out of this in a "region free" manner.

    Just to clarify: it's neither "script" nor "pseudo-code".
    Pseudo code is code, that doesn't actually execute, but is only used to describe a procedure to a human reader (like I did above, that was pseudo-code).
    And it's no script either. There are two variants and both are pure binary.
    HDMV: is a RISC like machine code, that runs on an emulated processor in the player.
    BD-J: is real compiled Java binary code (not Javascript).

    In a way, yes. But then again no. There's no refusal, because the player doesn't request specific stream data in the first place.
    The player simply runs the code on the disc and doesn't care about what is the main feature, a bonus feature, the region mismatch "feature", the FBI warning, .... it's all the same to it.
    The code on the disc does all the choosing. Region checking is just a tiny little piece in that whole decision making process. The code does it's thing, then it tells the player when it's time to play a trailer and to forth.
    Well, it doesn't actually tell the player to play a trailer, it says "play playlist 153" - the player doesn't know or care what it actually is. Similarly the "Wrong Region" picture is just another playlist on the disc - the player doesn't even know that, it just runs that playlist and it could as well be the main movie for all it knows. Or cares.

    AnyDVD doesn't actually change the code on the disc. It only "virtually" does so. Once AnyDVD is active, the PC will see the disc as if AnyDVD actually had changed it.
    That's why a copy made while AnyDVD is running will implicitly turn out to actually be changed.

    It doesn't. Referring back to my above "pseudo-code", it turns this
    Code:
    if(player_code equals "A") then play the movie, else show the bad region card
    into this
    Code:
    if("A" equals "A") then play the movie, else show the bad region card
    That's effectively region free. Works the same way with the other variant.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM
  4. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    Don't let Ch3vr0n confuse you, I suppose he was confused himself when he wrote that.
    PowerDVD doesn't give a damn and the optical drive does neither (Blu-ray drives are - other than DVD drives - entirely ignorant of anything regarding region coding).
     
  5. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL & Mod

    I never said the player checked the region, I said the DISC checks the region of the player for BD's. Which is what I've always been told here and have always said, afaik that's correct.

    For DVD's afaik it's the drive that checks the region of the disc.

    Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 6P met Tapatalk
     
  6. Pete

    Pete Forum Admin Staff Member

    Hey, then I must have misunderstood this:
    ;)
     
  7. Ch3vr0n

    Ch3vr0n Translator NL & Mod

    Ha busted. Apparently I wrote the exact opposite of what I meant. D'oh, my bad.

    Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 6P met Tapatalk
     
  8. theosch

    theosch Well-Known Member

    Anyway when explaining it might be confusing when using the word "player". The term "Player" is equivocatory. ;)

    It can be understood as play(ing)-(software) or as playing-(device).

    Play(ing)-(software) or BD/DVD-Optical disc drive-device, DVD/BD-standalone-playing-device).

    --
    I hope I understood it correctly and I have reminded it roughly as an aide-memoire.
    Code:
    A+B+C region Blu-ray disc = BD-Disc has region A+B+C -checking code on it which works with playing-(software)e set to region A/B or C - behaves like region free ?
    region-free Blu-ray disc = Disc has no BD region - region free
    --
    DVD-part-of-BD-drive / DVD+drive + DVD-ROM: the device checks if the DVD-1/2/3/4/5/6/7 DVD-drive-region-setting of the drive matches to the region code of the DVD-disc (Device is active, DISC (DVD) is passive - playing-software and DVD-Disc can't do the check)
    On Blu-ray: device doesn't have any region-code-checking-functionality (BD-DISC in combination with certain playing-software (licensed Blu-ray playing-software like e.g. PowerDVD are active)

    Does this exclude Blu-ray-ISO-copies set with wrong A/B/C region code setting in AnyDVD from playing in an UN-licensed playing-software like MPlayer?

    Afaik not playable Blu-ray ISOs due to wrong BD-region-code setting in AnyDVD just matters to licensed playing software like PowerDVD/PS3-BD-Player-program, correct?

    (That's just how I remember. Just intend to indicate if your BD-Disc gets broken in case you had wrong region-code ISO backup, the backup still playable in VLC and MPlayer.

    That was not explained so precisely :)
    --

    By the way what happens when setting in AnyDVD to region A, but the BD-disc has A+B+C: Mattering the Licensed playing software: Is the resulting ISO then just playable in Blu-ray playing-software set to region A (mattering licensed playing software) ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018 at 5:14 PM
  9. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    "Player" is either a software or hardware player.
    "A BD optical disc drive" is just a drive. If you open a standalone player, you'll see that it has an optical drive, too.
    Anyway, the drive or the player or the software in the player or the playback software has nothing to do with region locking.
    The only thing it does, is if code run from the disc asks for the region of the player, it answer with either 'A', 'B' or 'C'. Every other response would be invalid.
    Could you rephrase that question? Where does the "A+B+C region Blu-ray disc" or "region-free Blu-ray disc" come from? To me this is the same thing.

    EDIT:
    As I mentioned before, a "region free" disc could (and yes, a lot do!) play different things depending on the region of the player. e.g., only show FBI warning, if player region is 'A'.
    I still consider such a disc region free, as playback of the content you paid for isn't locked to a specific region.
     
  10. theosch

    theosch Well-Known Member

    Just a small observation, generally when people whoever, they often use the term "player" in answer, it's sometimes unclear whats meant with "player" (software-player or hardware-player or both together)
    (It might be difficult to s.o. new who is newer to this BD-topic to see the correct interpretation from context sometimes.)

    I just reremember from the developers and members that there can be region code on some/many, but not on all Blu-ray-ROM discs, which certain (BD)-playing-software can check for.
    If the region code run from the BD-DISC doesn't match to the region-code-(region-setting) registered in the licensed-BD-playing-software, that kind of BD-playing-software refuses to play back the BD-disc.
    This matters only to licensed playing software like PowerDVD or in a PS3.
    (Un)-licensed playing software like MPlayer and VLC do ignore to execute any region code on the BD-Disc.

    I know that AnyDVD can remove the region code with correct setting.
    --

    So afaik ripped BD-ROM ISOs with A/B or C ripped with wrong wrong region code setting in AnyDVD, still play in Unlicensed playing-software like VLC or MPlayer.
    Such copies set in AnyDVD with wrong region are just unplayable in software player like PowerDVD or in a PS3.
    Please correct me if that's wrong. :)
    Well tested this with one disc "Avatar"/"Red bird".
    My version has region B, for making the test-ISO-copy I chose region A in AnyDVD, the ISO still plays without any issues with unlicensed software like MPlayer/VLC.

    But wouldn't recommend to do so. It's just a small hint if original disc gets broken suddenly, but the copy was made with wrong region-setting, it doesn't play in PS3, it still might play in an unlicensed player. ;)
    --

    So I'd guess what kind of (licensed) playing-software still can play (some small) role with the region code (only "handling"), if it makes use of the region code from the disc to execute :)

    Fo me it's also A+B+C is also like region-free. Afaik it's not completely the same. Thanks for the information with just some small playing difference, like FBI-Logo.
    Earlier I presumed both were compeletly the same.

    I'm not sure if there are circumstances that can take into bad effect if you rip a A+B+C-Disc or a region-free-BD-disc with A- or B- or C- setting in AnyDVD (see question at the bottom).

    At least when I rip a BD-disc which has A+B+C Logo marking on cover, I alyway choose region-free in AnyDVD ask-back-window (setting in AnyDVD, to always ask for the region of the (BD)-disc)
    Same doing with BDs without any region code (neither any A/B/C nor any A+B+C-marking on the box/label existing). :)
    --

    Sry and I must say that's all how I know it, I'm not that clever person, and I need to think harder to understand that region code stuff more in detail.
    All that new stuff from the posts to me complicate to remember anything :)

    -
    What happens if you copy an A+B+C -BD-disc to ISO with region A-setting in AnyDVD, instead of "region-free-setting"?
    Is the resulting ISO also playable with licensed playing-software?
    I'd guess it gets either unplayable in licensed player or playable here, only if the software is set to region A.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong. Region (A+B+C) discs do also contain Java region checking code like BD-discs with only one region, correct?
    It's just it accepts all region settings in the player software?
    There are also other kind of region free Blu-ray which don't contain any region check code, correct?

    If yes, so there might be differet behavior between both sorts of when not making "region free setting in AnyDVD.
    -
    Just curious, don't want to buy a Blu-ray standalone player nor install PowerDVD.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018 at 7:24 PM
  11. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    Just read what Pete wrote. Again. And again.

    No. Just read what Pete wrote. Again. And again. E.g., VLC... when you tell it to show BD menus, you will go through the region thing, too. And yes, you can set VLC to be a region A, B or C player.
    If a player just plays a playlist - or an mkv - no code from the disc is executed.

    Just read what Pete wrote. Again. And again. Maybe you can answer the question yourself.

























    The answer is: Yes, it will play.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018 at 9:38 PM
  12. theosch

    theosch Well-Known Member

    OK. I probably haven't understood it so fully. Probably still not.

    Why at all all of that region code stuff checking by disc-code, activated through a licensed playing software at all, which (the disc code) checks which region code the playing software is set to, when the region code in the software player (like VLC) can be changed to appropriate region the discs want's to see in the software player to allow playback?

    That would render at least that region code protection useless ?? :confused:
    If yes that might implify that VLC might allow to operate even as a licensed playing software (kind one), if you tell VLC as which region software-player to behave as.

    I'll try to read Pete's, also James and testiles post again and again. :)
    --

    I hope I understood correctly. At least if I understood correctly and if I remeber correctly:
    So if I have a Blu-ray disc with region A-code, which want's the playing software to have region A-setting, in AnyDVD I set to B, this means, AnyDVD changes the code of the disc to expect an region B player. That copy is at least no longer playable in a licensed region A playing software, but in a region B playing software, correct?
    [Edit] Sry: Misinterpreting questioned: That copy now contains changed region code, which (region code on disc) prohibits playback by a region A playing software, but permits to do it in a region B playing software, correct?

    --

    If you play an m2ts file in the BDMV/STREAM -folder or its playlist file associated to it directly, so this is even possible with PowerDVD?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018 at 9:24 PM
  13. markfilipak

    markfilipak Well-Known Member

    This observation displays excellent analytic acumen. May I suggest these terms:
    discware: Code of any type that resides on an optical disc and is run by the optical drive's microprocessor.
    driveware: Code that resides in the optical drive, usually as firmware.
    software: AnyDVD (or other code that resides in the computer).
     
  14. markfilipak

    markfilipak Well-Known Member

    I don't know to whom I'm responding, but I know I'm responding to one or more contributers here.

    My PowerDVD software plays only Region A discs. If I instruct AnyDVD to report a Region A+B+C disc as Region B, why does PowerDVD play it?
     
  15. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    Read what Pete wrote. Again.

    If there is no code like
    Code:
    If player region != 'A' then play screen "wrong region"
    
    but
    Code:
    If player region == 'A' then show FBI warning (or whatever the code on the disc decides to do)
    
    and AnyDVD exchanges player region with 'B', it becomes

    Code:
    If 'B' == 'A' then show FBI warning.
    
    Read what Pete wrote. Again.
     
  16. markfilipak

    markfilipak Well-Known Member

    Kindly forgive me if I got lost in this discussion.

    T (i.e., testiles) said: "The way I understand it, setting the AnyDVD Region is telling AnyDVD what to tell the disc code the Region of the player is. If that's the case, it explains why 5 and 6 fail. The disc knows it's A but thinks the player is B and C for tests 5 and 6, so play fails."

    My Notes: Regardless whether T's 1st sentence is or isn't correct, his 2nd & 3rd sentences are clearly wrong because, either
    1 (if "player" refers to driveware): Driveware doesn't perform any checks -- it's strictly a slave, or
    2 (if "player" refers to software): The discware can't know what the player's (software's) region is.

    Ch3vr0n replied: "You understand wrong. You're telling anydvd what the region of the DISC is, it's the player that then checks the discs region to give out [if] it's allowed to play it"

    My Notes: Either
    1 (if "player" refers to driveware): What Ch3vr0n wrote is wrong because driveware doesn't perform any checks -- it's strictly a slave, or
    2 (if "player" refers to software): What Ch3vr0n wrote is correct because PowerDVD does the check and allows or disallows playback based on what discware has reported as Region Code -- I presume that it's this conversation that AnyDVD intercepts and alters.

    Pete replied: "No, he [T] actually got it 100% right. The player doesn't check anything by itself (except for lending its CPU to the disc's code to execute on)."

    My Notes: "he [T]" got it only partly right (maybe... I'm still unsure when/where/how "who" is telling "who" what). The 2nd part of what T wrote is wrong.

    By rereading what Pete wrote, I've gotten more unsure.

    By reading what you wrote, I'm very unsure. What you wrote is too cryptic... and that's with me assuming you're writing about AnyDVD code, not discware or driveware or PowerDVD code.

    Simple Question: My PowerDVD software plays only Region A discs. If I instruct AnyDVD to report a Region A+B+C disc as Region B, why does PowerDVD play it?
     
  17. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    Forget everything that anyone wrote. Except Pete and probably me. (we are saying the same, but he does it better).
    I am only talking about real code (not script, not pseudo, a real program) which is stored on the *disc* and is executed by the playback device (software on a PC, the CPU of a hardware player). The code stored an the disc decides, what it wants to play. For example the movie you paid for. Or a screen telling you "WRONG REGION!".

    All said by Pete and myself should reveal the mystery. If there is no program code stored on the disc, which is similar to this
    Code:
    if player region == 'A' show movie, else show "WRONG REGION!" screen
    
    AnyDVD cannot alter this code to
    Code:
    if 'B' == 'A' show movie,  else show "WRONG REGION!" screen
    
    so the movie will play. If such a code would exist - on a real region A coded disc - setting AnyDVD to region 'B' would be fatal. As 'B' == 'A' would never be true, the disc would never play. Regardless of the region of the player / playback device. It would always display the "WRONG REGION!" screen
    Not really so hard to understand?

    If you set the region correctly to 'A', the code would become
    Code:
    if 'A' == 'A' show movie,  else show "WRONG REGION!" screen
    
    which is always true. The disc would be changed from 'A' locked to region free, as 'A' == 'A' is still true, even if you play it in a region 'B' player.

    If there is still doubt, print out Pete's detailed explanation, put it under your pillow and try to absorb it by osmosis over night. ;)
     
  18. markfilipak

    markfilipak Well-Known Member

    Let me get this right, James.

    I should understand/agree with Pete when he writes that what T wrote was right when what T wrote is wrong?

    Did you read what I wrote? Especially the My Notes entries?

    Instead of spreading the parts of a car out on the garage floor and saying "There! Now you have everything you need to get to Paris", why don't you simply answer my question?

    My PowerDVD software plays only Region A discs. If I instruct AnyDVD to report a Region A+B+C disc as Region B, why does PowerDVD play it?

    PS: Really, it's okay to reply "I don't know."
     
  19. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    I did.
    I do know, and I told you.
    But hey, let's do it again.

    A region A+B+C disc does *not* contain code like this:
    Code:
    if player region == 'A' show movie, else show "WRONG REGION!" screen
    
    So setting AnyDVD to region B will *not* turn the code to this:
    Code:
    if 'B' == 'A' show movie, else show "WRONG REGION!" screen
    
    Otherwise it wouldn't be a region A+B+C disc, right? (which is pretty much the same as a region free disc).
    But I am repeating myself. If you take the time to read my last post...
    If you can't understand what I am trying to say, maybe someone else has more luck. Or try the osmosis.
     
  20. markfilipak

    markfilipak Well-Known Member

    James,

    I reread all that Pete wrote. I understand 100% of it. It shows a trivial part of a trivial scenerio, really, just an if-statement (though a case-statement is probably what's actually done).

    Among other things, I'm a Java programmer, James.

    If the discware is compiled code, then its object is machine code. I sincerely doubt that the discware is machine code because the disc manufacturer would have to have advance knowledge of the MPU and memory architecture of the BD drive ...of all BD drives.

    I've seen some of this Java. It looked pretty skeletal to me. I didn't see anything that looked like procedures, but the tool I was using might not have exposed them. But I suspect that the Java is interpreted. That would make it MPU-independent and BD drive manufacturers would only need to include an interpreter and an entry point (which would probably take a simple command line of text). Compiled code (i.e., machine code) just doesn't make sense from an engineering standpoint.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018 at 1:29 AM
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