CloneBD and 7.1 Audio

Discussion in 'CloneBD' started by karaokeamerica, Jun 29, 2018.

  1. karaokeamerica

    karaokeamerica Well-Known Member

    Does anyone have a step-by-step procedure for getting proper 7.1 Atmos extracted in CloneBD with my title rip?

    I have an example of a disk: Dr Strange on Blu-Ray.

    I can rip this in MakeMKV without issue. When I examine the MKV in MediaInfo it shows the streams as I selected for the rip. I have attached a snip of the streams it sees.

    In CloneBD the default audio codec is AAC. If I use that the best quality option I get for "Audio channels" is "Surround 5.1-384"

    If I choose AC3 or DTS as the "audio channels" option I can see higher quality bitrates, but still nothing better than 5.1.

    No matter which of these I choose get a value of "English Dolby TrueHD 7.1" as the "default" audio track. How can that be the default one if it isn't even seeing that track?

    The only way I even get the program to MAYBE rip 7.1 is if I use the "copy original (lossless)" option. I am ripping it now with those settings to see what is read by MediaInfo in the MKV, but it can't be this complicated.

    Is there a primer for how audio streams work in CloneBD? I can't find anything in this regard. Click the nose to help" isn't telling me anything about audio either. Is there another help option? Nothing on the Elby site that I can find.

    I found this using Google, but I guess I don't know enough about how audio streams work and how to extract them and what the quality implications are etc to know how to approach this, hence the "primer" question. Generally I haven't been super picky about the audio because I didn't have an Atmos amp. I recently got one so now I'm looking at my audio a lot more closely.

    How does audio "translate"? For example, if the MKV has only a single audio track for example, and it's 7.1, but you don't have and Atmos enabled amp will it downmix or something? How about 5.1?

    Thanks for any help in understanding this.

    Attached Files:

  2. karaokeamerica

    karaokeamerica Well-Known Member

    So, my "original audio" rip completed. It was 5.1 according to MediaInfo.

    I was able to rip the 7.1-DTS-HD Master Audio from the MakeMKV MKV I did and re-mux into my CloneBD MKV file that only had 5.1 audio, but 1/3rd the size. Now I have what I'm looking for.

    There MUST be a way to do this in one step in CloneBD.

    What if I say "pretty please?"

    Attached Files:

  3. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    Karaokeamerica, if you want the high rez audio tracks, either ATMOS or DTS-HD Master, you have to select Copy Original Lossless in CloneBD as you indicate. Otherwise it thinks you want to downgrade to a lower rez audio to save space.

    I tried making an .mkv file from Dr. Strange using CloneBD to see what results I got.

    I selected the Main Feature on the Blu Ray and requested only the English audio tracks and subtitles.

    For Audio codec, I used Copy Original (lossless). The default audio track is set to DTS-HD 7.1 which means it will start the movie using that audio track.

    The .mkv file was successfully created and PDVD confirmed playing it using the DTS-HD 7.1 audio track.

    So I didn't get any issues doing this....

    I'm using AnyDVD and CloneBD

  4. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    Of course. This is the point of this option. The others will reencode the audio.
  5. karaokeamerica

    karaokeamerica Well-Known Member

    Of course with my limited knowledge, this makes sense-ish. However, if this is the case, why when I put in a disk with 7.1 audio, if I don't choose "lossless" although I get at best a 5.1 in the "audio channels" drop down it shows 7.1 in the "default audio" drop down?
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  6. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    The default audio option only indicates which of the audio tracks on the disc you want to use on initial play.

    I bet it just shows all the tracks available on the disc and doesn't "edit" itself based on the Audio codec dropdown selection -- though it probably should.

    karaokeamerica likes this.
  7. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    I am not sure, which drop down menus you are referring to. But if you re-encode to Dolby Digtal or DTS, you will certainly only get 5.1., as this is the limit of these formats (weird extensions like DTS-EX aside).
    In the preview player / title selection it lists the audio format of the source on the disc (which makes sense).
    karaokeamerica likes this.
  8. karaokeamerica

    karaokeamerica Well-Known Member

    That could be.

    It would be awesome if CloneBD would be able to detect and list the actual option on that disk.....maybe it does and I don't get it. How do we know the ACTUAL options for any given disk? If I click on the nose it just gives me a general description of what the page is for and I can't find any other help or documentation on CloneBD at all.....just this forum.

    For example if I put in "Man on Fire". When I get to the options page for audio the dropdown has the following options:

    -Dolby Digital AC3
    -Copy Original (lossless)

    How does someone know what type of audio they are actually working with? I understand AAC is a re-encode/mixdown thing, but aren't DTS and AC3 two different things entirely? Is this saying it has both?

    If I run BDInfo on this particular disk it says it has:

    -DTS-HD Master Audio - DTS Core: 5.1 (only English audio track)
    -Dolby Digital Audio 5.1 (French audio)
    -Dolby Digital Audio 5.1 (Spanish audio)

    If I used the default AAC option of course it mixes it down to stereo. If I want the best quality surround available on the disk how do I know which to choose? I have an Atmos capable receiver (Denon AVR-S730H) and can handle whatever I can throw at it.
  9. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    The first three options tell CloneBD to *always* re-encode to the specified format *regardless* of the source format. e.g., you have a playback device only capable to play AAC or Dolby Digital AC3. Portable player? iPhone? iPad?
    If you select DTS, it will create a DTS audio track, even if the source is PCM, Dolby, Atmos, ...

    "Copy Original (lossless)" will not re-encode (hence lossless), and you will get the sound format of the source track, whatever this is. (PCM, Dolby, Dolby+, DTS, TrueHD/Atmos, DTS-HD, DTS-X, DTS-ES, ...)
    If you think about it for a moment, it is actually quite logical.

    If your playback chain is capable, select "Copy Original (lossless)", and enjoy.
  10. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    It is even so logical (Swiss logic?) that it will even re-encode the audio, even if the source format matches.
    e.g. the source is DTS and you select DTS as output. CloneBD will decode DTS to PCM internally, and re-encode it to DTS. Stupid, but very logical and straightforward. ;)
    It doesn't check what the source format is, it just re-encodes to the format you specified.
  11. James

    James Redfox Development Team Staff Member

    "Copy Original (lossless)"
  12. karaokeamerica

    karaokeamerica Well-Known Member

    Thanks James.

    I can see this disk has Dolby DTS according to the preview player. Is that what needs to be done with each disk so we know what to pick?

    The dropdowns I'm referring to are in the attached pic.
  13. karaokeamerica

    karaokeamerica Well-Known Member

    LOL........very straightforward.......;)

    2-3 replies came in while I was typing my last one! Sorry about missing them!

    I guess ultimately, I want the best quality (Atmos 7.1 if it has it) but from reading your replies are you saying that if I always use "lossless" it may not play if I try to use the media on some devices?

    Also, is there any reason why I would want multiple audio streams in a file? For example, a disk may have 7.1 and stereo on it or 5.1 and stereo. Do I need BOTH streams in a file to make it compatible or will the playback devices (typically Plex on a Roku/FireTV/TV-app, but sometimes my phone) or do players "mix down" if the player can't handle what you throw at it? I am able to extract multiple audio streams from the original disk for example. Should I or do I need to? It would be time consuming for sure unless CloneBD can allow you to select multiple streams of audio simultaneously like say MakeMKV will. The obvious drawback there is that you can't encode the video in MakeMKV, which would necessitate an extra step to first rip then encode it for file size.

    I know this last one isn't EXACTLY a CloneBD question, but I take bits of knowledge where I can get them!

    Thanks again!
  14. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    I always pick all English tracks available on the source disc for flexibility and maximum compatibility....

    ... The only thing selecting multiple audio tracks in CloneBD consumes is space in the output file.

    Not time consuming because you can check however many audio streams you want to include in the preview player showing the Main Title and CloneBD includes them all at once.

    I think the way you are looking at CloneBD may be a little skewed. It has four distinct modes.

    In the first mode, Source, tell it what file, folder, disc or iso you want to work on.

    In the next mode, Copy, you tell CloneBD what you want to create as output. That's where you picked .mkv.

    In the next mode, Selection, you tell it what you want to copy from the source material. It's where you indicated you wanted the Main Feature.

    For more fine-tuning on what you want from the Main Feature you invoke the Preview Player. The Preview Player shows the actual Main Feature, delineates the chapters, allows you to trim leading and trailing chapters if you want, lists every audio track and subtitle available on the Main Feature and let's you select any and all you want.

    In the final mode, Target, you explain how you want CloneBD to create your output. You can stipulate what video and audio codecs should be on the mkv created, among other parameters.

    So, as James said, if here you tell it you want the output mkv to have DTS audio, it will create DTS audio in the file regardless of what's actually in the Source media. For what you seem to be trying to do, which is get what's on the Source media untouched, you would always say Copy Original.

    And it will create your mkv with every audio track you stipulated in Selection mode.

    Hope this is helpful.

    karaokeamerica likes this.
  15. karaokeamerica

    karaokeamerica Well-Known Member

    So I guess that answers my question as to whether players mix down higher level audio streams....sigh.....

    Yes, I realize that. It's OK.

    I'll have to play with this more. I ripped Wonder Woman last night and in the preview player I thought I saw multiple tracks already selected, but the final rip has only 5.1. More experimenting is needed by me.

    To be clear though, you are saying that whatever, I select int he preview player will carry over to the trip? I ask because to get from the preview player to the next step in the process you actually have to go back one step in the workflow. I did notice thoigh that you seem to have the same options in the little, flyout "options" panel on the right side of the title chooser when it comes to audio and subtitles.

    First of all, YES, it is helpful! Thank you!

    I do understand the basic workflow, but what I didn't know (and I'm still learning about) is the technology itself. Like what's the difference between Atmos, 5.1 DTS, DTS-HD, AAC, Core etc. To me it was all just how many speakers you had and placement. That's apparently not true though. I also don't understand a lot about how CloneBD interacts with and can work with those things. I didn't realize that if you choose DTS it will convert from whatever is on there TO DTS.....whatever that is. Frankly, I thought those settings were so you could "match up" what was on the disk with what the output should be. I suppose in a perfect world I would expect the program to tell ME what it has on the disk natively then give me the available options to decide if I wanted the original or to convert it. I also thought that when it ripped the disk, it simply encoded/compressed whatever audio it had. In other words say you had Atmos 7.1......I thought CloneBD (or other ripping programs) took what in effect was 7 streams of audio and re-encoded them to basically the same thing, but perhaps with a lower bitrate or something. I didn't know the only way to get what's on the disk is to always leave it on "copy original".

    As far as all the features goes, I will experiment more. When I first started using CloneBD it was to first an attempt to replace HandBrake (which I still use for DVD's and sometimes Blu-Rays) and then to replace a freeware program I was using for ripping TAB/SBS 3D movies once CloneBD grew that capability. However, I wasn't very sophisticated. Originally, if my rip played and had ANY audio it was good enough. Then I bought a 5.1 surround amp. I still didn't understand enough to know that the audio was stored in multiple streams that if they weren't ripped properly I wouldn't be able to utilize surround. I just thought it was magic because sometimes I heard stuff out of my rear channel speakers!

    Now, I recently bought a 7.1 Atmos amp. Still putting it all together and I don't have all the speakers hooked up yet, but what it's making me do is pay more attention to all the disks I rip going forward and a few that I'm re-ripping to get the better quality audio in my files.

    I do appreciate the help! Thanks again and if you are aware of any good primers on how to understand all the audio options in rips I'd like to read it!
  16. testiles

    testiles Well-Known Member

    Actually it doesn't. Some players do, some don't. That's a player question and you would need to look at the specs of a specific player to answer it. The best physical players can if that's desired.

    I'm just saying I leave as many audio options as are available when I create something using CloneBD so I'm covered no matter what the player's requirement.

    Yeah, double-check that. Wonder Woman has both a 7.1 and 5.1 English audio track. Make sure the 7.1 track is checked if that's what you want.

    Yes. That's why you're selecting it.

    It's not really going backward. Think of the Preview player as drilling down to the details of the Title selected.

    When you exit it you are returning to the "normal" Selection screen. But you're still in Selection mode. You don't go to the next step (mode) until you hit "Continue" bottom of screen.

    Good point. Seems you can also use that Settings tab to the right you point out if you don't want to go to the Preview player.

    Never used it but seems to have the same function of allowing you to select what audio and subtitles of the selected title you want to include in your output file.

    Dude, this would be a seminar all unto itself.

    In general, the Atmos, Dolby True HD, DTS-HD, 7.1, 5.1, etc on the original disc differ in the number of channels, resolution of audio, method used to produce the sound, etc.

    I believe AAC and Core may have to do with what you can downrez those source audio channels to to put on your output file. Many people could care less about multiple channels or audio resolution and just want an mkv file that has 2 channel sound and takes up as little space as possible. I think AAC and Core offer this (but not 100% sure).

    If you're choosing DTS in Target Mode, what you're telling CloneBD is that's the audio format you want on the file regardless of what's on the source material.

    Someone might choose this who prefers the sound of DTS over Dolby for instance.

    I guess it's a perfect world then because that's what CloneBD does. Tells you what's on the disc natively in the Preview player or on the Settings tab to the right of the Selection screen you mention. Then let's you decide whether to keep original or convert on the Target screen.

    Sorry I don't. I had to learn what I know the hard way. Maybe someone else could chime in with a good suggestion.

    Otherwise, as someone else on this board is fond of saying, "The Internet is your friend". (lol)