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Cinavia

BTW, on that point of "just use a DVD only standalone player" is a rule of thumb without much substance since the manufacturers could incorporate Cinavia protections with new players. No doubt the newer Sony players all have it.
I assume you are speaking from your vast knowledge and experience as that is not part of the DVD standard, and I would love for you to give me an example (just one) of a DVD player that will mute the audio on a Cinavia disc.

I would be surprised if very many manufacturers even still manufacture "DVD only" standalone players. It's a step backwards for any consumer to buy such a player so there is almost zero market for. You can buy "new old stock" on those old players but it's not a good long term solution to Cinavia. Just more electronic hardware clutter you will pay to have disposed of as hazardous materials eventually.
Make sure you are sitting down then because there are a lot of new DVD players being made (including Sony). A lot of people have some pretty vast DVD collections and are not going to spend thousands of dollars more to convert to Bluray, then thousands more for whatever follows. A lot of folks either don't have the money, or have bigger needs than to spend the money to get the latest and greatest.
 
Whether the DVD only player is new or old is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that cinavia is NOT a part of the official DVD standard. As such DVD ONLY players are NOT required to detect the signal. Even brand new ones, you buy today. The important part is that they ONLY play DVD's.

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I'm curious...if the Watermark or Holoimage or modulated audio is present to enable the BD to play, why do my backups of Real Steel and Tron Legacy play fine in a Sony BD player that snapped on the Jurassic World backup DVD with a message, once, about Cinavia and muted audio?
If Bluray backups from 2011 or thereabouts will play on Cinavia polluted BD players, there has to be a pass for specific audio patterns from pre-2011, or my "copies" on Verbatim 50g blanks wouldn't pass Cinavia (I assume with a Cinavia message on a new Jurassic World DVD backup, the Sony has Cinavia) and play uninterrupted on it.
I am now even more ignorant than I was before this...and that was quite a lot.
Probably because your copies of "Real Steel" and "Tron Legacy" don't have the watermark. You can check with CloneBD within seconds.
 
So, is that how that goes...all Blurays have a "hidden" watermark, that are made after a certain date, and when it's detected in a duplicate copy the Cinavia audio block kicks in...but any copy or any BD commercially made before a certain date (like my copies of BD Real Steel and Tron Legacy ) will make Cinavia-detection free backups?

(Thanks for the input.)
 
No, not 'all' blurays. Not even the ones after that date. Usually only the ones with the logo on the packaging. The 'all' the referring impacts the PLAYERS not the discs, and only the ones that are licensed after that specific date. If you can pick up a pre-feb 1st, 2012 TODAY it will not be required to detect it. For the simple reason it was licensed before that date.

And no, not Any Copy or Any commercially either. The DISCS contain the signal, the PLAYERS detect it and ONLY the ones that were LICENSED for playback after that date. Players can't 'make' cinavia free backups, pre-2012 players just ignore the signal. In order to make cinavia free backups you need cloning software that processes the audio to remove the signal. No player can 'recode' to remove or, they just play the audio and that's it.

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Yes. Or any player which cannot play original BD discs. (e.g., Kodi based media players)
Yes, those players won't detect Cinavia either, but if you want the full blu ray capable player experience that works with full menu and able to play original disks, the most economical and long term solution that I know that works is a Windows compatible mini HTPC with a legal software player like PDVD and AnyDVDHD to disable Cinavia detection.

On the issue of stand alone DVD player manufacturers, if Sony is releasing DVD's with Cinavia, they would also be motivated to manufacture current DVD hardware players that are Cinavia enabled. I don't really have any proof that is a problem, but if in the market for a new DVD only standalone, I would steer clear of Sony.
 
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Make sure you are sitting down then because there are a lot of new DVD players being made (including Sony). A lot of people have some pretty vast DVD collections and are not going to spend thousands of dollars more to convert to Bluray, then thousands more for whatever follows. A lot of folks either don't have the money, or have bigger needs than to spend the money to get the latest and greatest.

First part, exactly what new standalone players only play DVD's? Second part, why do you think that you have to convert DVD's to play on a blu ray player? Nearly all new standalone players manufactured these days are both DVD, Blu Ray and Cinavia compatible.

My take on standalone players is that they are not "green". Look at the HTPC solution, much more control and so much less waste :)
When the BD drive on an HTPC fails you just replace that drive for
minimum cost and not the whole system as most people do with a standalone. It's also much easier to upgrade an HTPC system and long term costs are less with more control.
 
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How about DVD players lol, check your local stores. They do so exist DVD only players.

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No, not 'all' blurays. Not even the ones after that date. Usually only the ones with the logo on the packaging. The 'all' the referring impacts the PLAYERS not the discs, and only the ones that are licensed after that specific date. If you can pick up a pre-feb 1st, 2012 TODAY it will not be required to detect it. For the simple reason it was licensed before that date.

And no, not Any Copy or Any commercially either. The DISCS contain the signal, the PLAYERS detect it and ONLY the ones that were LICENSED for playback after that date. Players can't 'make' cinavia free backups, pre-2012 players just ignore the signal. In order to make cinavia free backups you need cloning software that processes the audio to remove the signal. No player can 'recode' to remove or, they just play the audio and that's it.

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Thanks for more information, but that doesn't answer the question of why 2 copies I made before Cinavia work in a Sony Cinavia enabled player.
Obviously the Asus Bluray reader writer I used didn't add or remove anything; so, the Sony post 2012 Bluray player is Cinavia enabled as it detected the Jurassic World DVD, yet BOTH my BD copies played without a message or audio dropout at all, NO CINAVIA detection.
Are you saying that some BDs are going to be detected as copies even though they are commercially produced pre2012? Why would the BDs before the Cinavia rollout not all be immune from Cinavia detection?
I can't afford new equipment to work around Cinavia, life can be like that sometimes; so I am trying to understand why a Cinavia loaded Bluray Player didn't see either pre2012 copy yet got a little upset when I played JW DVD. Would that hold true for all pre Cinavia Bluray discs, if not, why would the industry slam pre-existing customers by voiding presales of high Dollar BDs? (rhetorical)
I do have a preCinavia Bluray Player, but it may not last as long as I'd like; so when I buy another player someday I want to know what is possible...I have backed up all my DVDs onto HDDs, and want to be able to use whatever BDs or new DVDs I end up possibly playing on a Bluray player. I would hope that at least backedup BDs from preCinavia times would always play on Cinavia enabled players.
If I don't get the whole picture now, I'll just wait and see what the future brings.
 
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Sure it does, check the packaging. Not every movie has cinavia. Even if its the same movie title. Its the RELEASE that counts, the main backer from cinavia is Sony (yes they have a release studio too). If the movie itself isn't distributed by "Sony Pictures Entertainment" its not very likely that the disc has cinavia. There's only a handful of studio's that use it due to the licensing cost.

Are you saying that some BDs are going to be detected as copies even though they are commercially produced pre2012? Why would the BDs before the Cinavia rollout not all be immune from Cinavia detection?

No, that's the exact opposite of what i'm saying. if you read again, i specifically mention "blu-ray PLAYERS" pre-2012. Such as my Panasonic DMP-BD110. Picked an new one up of left-over stock on e-bay not too long ago. NEW unit, licensed for playback BEFORE 2012 => doesn't have to detect it. The only thing that matters is WHEN was the model LICENSED for blu-ray playback, not when you bought it.

If you pick up a "real" new player such as the panasonic, DMP-BDT170 it WILL have to detect the signal as that unit was licensed for playback in 2015.
 
One of the better ones out there...and guess what, it's a Sony. There is still DVD/VCR players/recorders out there.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-dv...lack/4790739.p?id=1218531614527&skuId=4790739

Ok, that's interesting that Sony would still be marketing DVD players that are "Cinavia free". My take on that is that most likely it's "New Old Stock" and that's the only reason people are still buying DVD players (to avoid Cinavia) and even Sony doesn't want to disturb that limited market while they dump old stock warehouse full of product to anyone who will buy it.

IMHO, all that stuff is hazardous waste. Much more green to go HTPC. :)

One other thing, it's not likely that Sony is actively selling new products that are "cinavia free.."
 
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Sure it does, check the packaging. Not every movie has cinavia. Even if its the same movie title. Its the RELEASE that counts, the main backer from cinavia is Sony (yes they have a release studio too). If the movie itself isn't distributed by "Sony Pictures Entertainment" its not very likely that the disc has cinavia. There's only a handful of studio's that use it due to the licensing cost.



No, that's the exact opposite of what i'm saying. if you read again, i specifically mention "blu-ray PLAYERS" pre-2012. Such as my Panasonic DMP-BD110. Picked an new one up of left-over stock on e-bay not too long ago. NEW unit, licensed for playback BEFORE 2012 => doesn't have to detect it. The only thing that matters is WHEN was the model LICENSED for blu-ray playback, not when you bought it.

If you pick up a "real" new player such as the panasonic, DMP-BDT170 it WILL have to detect the signal as that unit was licensed for playback in 2015.

You have set your mind to only hear something I am not saying.
It's a simple question...if I have BDs from before the Cinavia rollout, will a Cinavia enabled player reject an older BD without any info from Cinavia like a watermark or whatever the alert system is on the disc?
I know the players are the end of the line for discs (duh) so repeating that players will be the problem with Cinavia detection is meaningless to the question. I have a player pre2012 that plays all...
How is it that years back companies that were going to use Cinavia (maybe) in the future would put data in the discs they made to ensure no copies would pass muster and be played using Cinavia? Seems improbable, before contracts were signed and all, so discs that now are being played must have a watermark or something to play (or not) in new Cinavia enabled players? How about BDs that were made, like my originals, before Cinavia? New BDs and some DVDs have something triggering the Cinavia audio block, and will older or non-Cinavia detection mark-imprinted BDs and DVDs always play in Cinavia enabled players, now or in a few years?
Do all older non-marked BDs and DVDs get a pass from newer Cinavia enabled players forever? If not, how does an older disc (or copy) get to play in a new player?
People do NOT let go of preferred habits, VCRs are being used today by diehard people who still own VHS tapes! DVDs will be played until the last one crumbles away...no player manufacturer would ignore that reality...so players have to have a concession to older discs of both types, which could possibly lead to a spoofing from an older "press" to somehow fool the Cinavia detection system...just playing with the general idea.

Seems like if an older valid BD can play (or a copy) in a Cinavia Bluray Player undetected there is a special backdoor for older presses of DVDs and BDs.
 
I havent set my mind to anything, you're simply not reading what i'm saying. Of course a cinavia enabled player won't reject older discs, they'll only refuse to play backup copies that carry the signal and thats post-feb 1st. Refusing to play "old" discs would be like a 2015 player refusing to play 2014 discs. Part of the standard is ensuring backwards compatibility if they want the player licensed.

How is it that years back companies that were going to use Cinavia (maybe) in the future would put data in the discs they made to ensure no copies would pass muster and be played using Cinavia?

Sorry, that line makes no sense at all. They haven't put "data" in it that cause them not to be played.

Understanding how cinavia works is relatively simple. An inaudible signal is added to the master copy of a movie, cinavia checks if the disc is encrypted, if it is, everything is peachy. If it isn't it will require the player to mute the signal. Play a cinavia infected backup disc in a 2012+ player => it will mute the audio, play it in a 2011 or earlier player, it will play just fine. For the simple reason those models pre-date the mandatory detection date and lack the needed hardware to detect the signal.

Originals (cinavia or not) will play just fine in post 2012 player. Cinavia could care less about originals. It's a DRM to prevent the playback of BACKUP copies that have been decrypted. It works like this: insert a cinavia infected backup disc, player checks for cinavia, cinavia is found, cinavia checks for disc encryption (AACS, BD+,... which obviously arent present because its a backup), cinavia sees no encryption, cinavia then tells the player "hey, thats an illegal copy. Stop the audio immediately and display message X".) Cinavia only comes into play when you want to play backups on a 2012 or later cinavia enabled player. Play an original, you've got nothing to worry about. When those originals were produced (2012 or before) is irrelevant, WHEN only again comes into play for backups to decide wether there's a chance at them having cinavia on it or not.

New BDs and some DVDs have something triggering the Cinavia audio block, and will older or non-Cinavia detection mark-imprinted BDs and DVDs always play in Cinavia enabled players, now or in a few years?

Of course they do, thats the essence of cinavia. The inaudible audio signal inside the movie audio track, that signal itself IS cinavia.

Do all older non-marked BDs and DVDs get a pass from newer Cinavia enabled players forever?

If the discs don't have cinavia on them (and only a handful of studios use it atm due to licensing cost), if they're original ones the player is gonna play them just fine. Again, cinavia only comes into play for BACKUP DISCS that are unprotected.

If not, how does an older disc (or copy) get to play in a new player?

No such issue. Part of the standard is ensuring backwards compatibility, new players won't refuse playback of old discs. In fact it would sooner be the OPPOSITE where OLD players would refuse to play NEW discs due to changes in the BD standard technology and the player (or its firmware) no longer knows how to handle them. Even that is highly unlikely, My old DMP-BD85 still plays new discs just peachy.

Seems like if an older valid BD can play (or a copy) in a Cinavia Bluray Player undetected there is a special backdoor for older presses of DVDs and BDs.

There are no "backdoors". The disc either has cinavia or it doesn't. If it has, then the original versus backup comes into play.

cinavia + original disc + cinavia enabled player: no problem whatsoever
cinavia + original disc + pre-feb 1st 2012 licensed player: no problem whatsoever, player lacks the technology to detect the signal
cinavia + backup disc + cinavia enabled player : Cinavia will kick in unless the signal is removed from the backup
cinavia + backup disc + pre-feb 1st 2012 licensed player: no problem whatsoever.
 
cinavia + original disc + cinavia enabled player: no problem whatsoever
cinavia + original disc + pre-feb 1st 2012 licensed player: no problem whatsoever, player lacks the technology to detect the signal
cinavia + backup disc + cinavia enabled player : Cinavia will kick in unless the signal is removed from the backup
cinavia + backup disc + pre-feb 1st 2012 licensed player: no problem whatsoever.

Nicely put together, I wonder if the audio signal uses frequency modulation or amplitude modulation to carry cinavia signal, or could be just oversampled to 384khz per say, after all it is a digital audio signal to begin with.
 
That's where your wrong, it's not digital. It's an analog signal added to the master copy. The analog part of it is a big party of why it persists through encoding to other formats. Sampling etc doesn't work, people have tried it and to the extreme with pitch shifting. That sort of works but not without destroying the voices to the point where they either sound like chipmunks or super low voiced people.

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Ok I know my Blu-ray burner burns only 0's and 1's so how is an analog signal carried over to the BD-R? I hope you were not drunk when you wrote the post ?????
 
the burner doesn't care or know if a signal is digital or analogue. It's all "data" made up of 1's and 0's. The burner doesn't carry anything over, the embedding is done at the studio level where they make the master copy. You'd have to ask them why/how it carries over, we all know it just does. Which is why it isn't simple to remove it. Want proof?

shoot a home video about 30min long, mux in the audio of a cinavia protected movie, play it on a cinavia enabled player. Your homevideo will trigger cinavia and i doubt you'll have the technical knowhow to have added it manually. The player doesn't care either what type of source it is playing. It just detects the signal and gets told, cut the audio feed.

And no, i wasn't drunk. I dont drink alcohol AT ALL. There's plenty of info on what cinavia is, and how it works floating around this forum and google.
 
the burner doesn't care or know if a signal is digital or analogue. It's all "data" made up of 1's and 0's. The burner doesn't carry anything over, the embedding is done at the studio level where they make the master copy. You'd have to ask them why/how it carries over, we all know it just does. Which is why it isn't simple to remove it. Want proof?

shoot a home video about 30min long, mux in the audio of a cinavia protected movie, play it on a cinavia enabled player. Your homevideo will trigger cinavia and i doubt you'll have the technical knowhow to have added it manually. The player doesn't care either what type of source it is playing. It just detects the signal and gets told, cut the audio feed.

And no, i wasn't drunk. I dont drink alcohol AT ALL. There's plenty of info on what cinavia is, and how it works floating around this forum and google.

You are confused between recording the audio at it's analog format and digitizing it for distribution on digital media such as streaming and disc, the burner cannot and will never record or read an analog signal, that was in the 70's with LD and CDV. And the studio cannot add analog audio to a digital audio, it just doesn't work that way, and they cannot convert the audio to analogue either to just add an analogue signal to it because the studio know it will loose quality and that audiophiles like me don't like it, so that leaves two options they add or modulate the sound when they are recording the instruments and dialogue sessions before it hits the ADC which sounds silly, or add it digitally after the ADC level which is actually much easier it only needs some algorithms that can be added to the authoring and publishing software, So don't even think again that the disc carried analogue audio, if you post that at AVS forum they will make fun of you.
 
No I'm not mistaking anything, you're the one confusing things. The same way you are mixing things up over at the 4k/uhd thread.

I never said the burner recorded analogue signal. I said the STUDIOS added the analogue cinavia signal. Read up on what it is, and how it works. I'm done with this back and forth.

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