Cinavia

[dellsam34]

If you think about it the blu-ray burner copies the disc bit by bit as data and not as Video/audio, so the water mark should be there right? So where did it go?
Here is my theory: I think this water mark thing is a none sense, and I think they are recording the original blu-ray in an unusual manner that only their recorders and cinavia players knows it and I mean by that is they are probably using some sort of holographic engraving / barcoding or additional spiral tracks that the normal blu-ray player/burner cannot reach to read, I can back my theory as follows:
1- We know that some old blu-ray players don't have cinavia even with the latest firmware right? that's because they don't have that mechanism, and the ones were cinavia enabled by FW they did have the mechanism but it wasn't functional yet.
2- This is Important: Blu-ray players with cinavia flag your BD-R's BD-ISO, BDMV, MKV ...etc. not because cinavia coding cannot be carried over to a bd-r, a disc image or a file but because it was never there in the first place, it is somewhere else on the the original disc, So you have to use the physical disc or it will flag the BD-R, BD-ISO, BDMV, movie file as long as it has the correct audio stream for them to detect as such movie title that you are playing and not your home video, more detection schemes will follow such as frames picture matching.
3- This is an alternative to 2: If the theory of an additional printed tracks or holograph is a bullshit as some of you may already think is, than I guess cinavia enabled blu-ray just detect that you are playing BD-ISO, file, BDMV, BD-R and not BD-ROM, so it reads the audio track it knows it's a such movie therefore you cannot play it.

To summarize: The audio track is used for identifying the movie title only and has no water mark at all, Some of the hackers found a way to fool the cinavia enabled player to think this audio track is for my birthday party and not for a movie but that alters the quality of the audio. But like I said more detection schemes will follow and time will tell.

So how this cinavia can be defeated then?:
-If scenario 2 true than a blank BD-R's and blu-ray burners will have the capability to record the additional info from the original disc, This probably will never be possible.
-If scenario 3 true than blank media should be made to be detected as BD-ROM's instead of BD-R's, So I can start using my PS3 again!!

 

[rotty dog]

they are probably using some sort of holographic engraving / barcoding or additional spiral tracks that the normal blu-ray player/burner cannot reach to read, I can back my theory as follows:

The problem with this theory is that a FILE from a HDrive or stick will trigger detection. i.e. no physical disk present.

Even watermarked audio picked up on a microphone will trigger detection.

Cinavia is no problem to any of us, but just a discussion.

 

[ddjmagic]

The strange thing about this protection is that it DOES hit the bad guys, and not us the good guys, or at least not too hard.
I.e. it stops Blu Ray knock offs being sold in Pubs etc to the general public, who would mostly play these disks on a stand alone players.
Like I say, if you think about it, Cinavia IS hitting the right people.

I don't think it does hit the 'bad guys' too much, I'm going to guess that physical BD-R selling is a really small percentage of movie piracy (especially BD)
The biggest source is illegal downloading, which is not affected by Cinavia as 99% of people won't play a downloaded movie file on an actual BD player.

The 'good guys' who just want a backup of their legally purchased disc to play on their standalone will suffer the most IMO.

To summarize: The audio track is used for identifying the movie title only and has no water mark at all, Some of the hackers found a way to fool the cinavia enabled player to think this audio track is for my birthday party and not for a movie but that alters the quality of the audio. But like I said more detection schemes will follow and time will tell.

The watermark is definitely in the audio, the player checks if the Cinavia source is AACS protected, if so (original) it works as normal, if not it will mute the audio.

 

[rotty dog]

I don't think it does hit the 'bad guys' too much, I'm going to guess that physical BD-R selling is a really small percentage of movie piracy (especially BD)
The biggest source is illegal downloading, which is not affected by Cinavia as 99% of people won't play a downloaded movie file on an actual BD player.

The 'good guys' who just want a backup of their legally purchased disc to play on their standalone will suffer the most IMO.

I do see your point, but we, "The Good Guys" do have the advantage of knowing how to deal with/get round Cinavia.

But I take your point re downloads.

I think that I would also totally agree with what most of the posts say on here and that is it doesn't really affect us.

 

[dellsam34]

The problem with this theory is that a FILE from a HDrive or stick will trigger detection. i.e. no physical disk present.

Even watermarked audio picked up on a microphone will trigger detection.

Cinavia is no problem to any of us, but just a discussion.

Exactly and that's my point, if the water mark is in the file it should be played fine, the problem is when there is no water mark, That's why I said this water mark is non sense, the player plays the file and scans the audio part of the movie and compare it to their database, if identified it will flag it and stop playing it, Kind of like the technology that iTunes uses to recognize tracks and youtube to look for copy protected materials, that's all, water marking is a lie to keep the hackers away from figuring out this protection.

 

[dellsam34]

The watermark is definitely in the audio, the player checks if the Cinavia source is AACS protected, if so (original) it works as normal, if not it will mute the audio.

Nope, I did made a 1-1 copy leaving the AACS on and still flagged by the player, It detects that it's a BD-R and scans the audio for the first few minutes and compares it frequency by frequency to their database if it passes the test it will flag it, if it fails the comparison test it knows that you are playing something else, simple as that no water mark. As I mentioned above apple and youtube and other companies that use voice command devices being using this technology for quite awhile now.

 

[rotty dog]

Hi Dellsam

I promise you the watermark is real and is a result of the existing audio being modulated with the Cinavia watermarking(s).

Don't forget, a "pressed disk" is very different to a "burned disk"

The areas on the ROM disk where the keys etc are stored does NOT exist on a Public available burnable disk.

This is true for DVD and Blu Ray.

Think about it, if you could copy a BD ROM byte for byte and copy that info into all the areas on a disk that are available on the BD ROM then there would be no point in putting ANY encryption(s) etc on the disk.

 

[dellsam34]

Hi Dellsam

I promise you the watermark is real and is a result of the existing audio being modulated with the Cinavia watermarking(s).

Don't forget, a "pressed disk" is very different to a "burned disk"

The areas on the ROM disk where the keys etc are stored does NOT exist on a Public available burnable disk.

This is true for DVD and Blu Ray.

Think about it, if you could copy a BD ROM byte for byte and copy that info into all the areas on a disk that are available on the BD ROM then there would be no point in putting ANY encryption(s) etc on the disk.

So you agree with my first theory where I said the original disc has more data that a normal player cannot reach to play, In that case why would they put a water mark if they hard pressed the codes on the disc itself it doesn't make any sense, So I still stick to my point of the water mark is on the physical disc special location and not in the audio stream, if it was it would be carried over to a BD-R or at least to a disc image on the hard drive.

 

[ddjmagic]

Nope, I did made a 1-1 copy leaving the AACS on and still flagged by the player, It detects that it's a BD-R and scans the audio for the first few minutes and compares it frequency by frequency to their database if it passes the test it will flag it, if it fails the comparison test it knows that you are playing something else, simple as that no water mark.

How are you leaving the AACS on? If you burn a BD-R from a retail pressed disc with protection intact it will not play.
If it does play then AACS can not be present therefore will trigger Cinavia.

Watermark is in the audio 100%. It is designed so even if recorded (e.g camcorder at a movie theater) the watermark will remain intact on the recording.

 

[rotty dog]

So you agree with my first theory where I said the original disc has more data that a normal player cannot reach to play, In that case why would they put a water mark if they hard pressed the codes on the disc itself it doesn't make any sense, So I still stick to my point of the water mark is on the physical disc special location and not in the audio stream, if it was it would be carried over to a BD-R or at least to a disc image on the hard drive.

Well sorry no I don't agree at all. Like I said, the watermark is squarely in the audio stream, nowhere else.

Do this,

use tsmuxer and select demux and strip out the audio (un tick all except the HD audio) form the movie stream of a known Cinavia infested disk
cut it to about 30 mins
save the audio to a file
close tsmuxer

open tsmuxer again and load a home video into it
select the audio from the home movie and delete or un tick the stream just so no confusion.
use windows explorer and drag the audio you stripped out that contains Cinavia into tsmuxer

Select remux to blu ray folder or iso, (whichever you wish)

either burn a disk and play it in a Cinavia enabled stand alone player
or play the file using a Licenced s/w player (make sure you either un tick the Cinavia defeat in Anydvd or exit anydvd so the detection is in tact within the player)

You will find that this WILL trigger detection.

P.S. did you say that you left AACS on the -R disk, how on earth did you play that disk on a stand alone player anyway.

P.P.S. Just seen that DD has asked you the same question.

 

[dellsam34]

Well sorry no I don't agree at all. Like I said, the watermark is squarely in the audio stream, nowhere else.

Do this,

use tsmuxer and select demux and strip out the audio (un tick all except the HD audio) form the movie stream of a known Cinavia infested disk
cut it to about 30 mins
save the audio to a file
close tsmuxer

open tsmuxer again and load a home video into it
select the audio from the home movie and delete or un tick the stream just so no confusion.
use windows explorer and drag the audio you stripped out that contains Cinavia into tsmuxer

Select remux to blu ray folder or iso, (whichever you wish)

either burn a disk and play it in a Cinavia enabled stand alone player
or play the file using a Licenced s/w player (make sure you either un tick the Cinavia defeat in Anydvd or exit anydvd so the detection is in tact within the player)

You will find that this WILL trigger detection.

P.S. did you say that you left AACS on the -R disk, how on earth did you play that disk on a stand alone player anyway.

P.P.S. Just seen that DD has asked you the same question.

I agree the home movie will be detected as cinavia, so if the water mark is in the audio stream than there is no point to put the code somewhere else on the disc like you said. But whatever it is I don't think it's a big issue as of now, we will see Blu-ray players with hacked firmwares been updated constantly so I wouldn't worry about just few discs.

 

[rotty dog]

I agree the home movie will be detected as cinavia, so if the water mark is in the audio stream than there is no point to put the code somewhere else on the disc like you said.

Yes that's right, it is ONLY in the audio stream and is an AUDIO marking, i.e. (sound (analogue))
In other words, the Watermark can be passed on at the Analogue level and therefore does not need to be a digital to digital copy for it to be transferred.

DD put is so well, do a camcorder recording from your TV of a movie containing Cinavia.

Can you guess the rest.

We are not worried about Cinavia, it does NOT bother US,this is just a discussion on how it works, that's ALL.

 

[knownote]

Hi, I find its not '' much about ado nothing'' I can say my opinion about the problem right now. You know if this kind of protection begin to be in most popular dvd, that will be sad for all of us its just sharring experience or opinion. Do not jugde the post

I agree it is NOT much ado about nothing. Let's be real. If all anyone wanted to do was play a dvd, then Slysoft would not be in business, so to say "just play it in a dvd player", does not make sense.

 

[mmdavis]

I agree it is NOT much ado about nothing. Let's be real. If all anyone wanted to do was play a dvd, then Slysoft would not be in business, so to say "just play it in a dvd player", does not make sense.

Why not? Since no DVD player checks for Cinavia, it makes perfect sense. A Bluray player does not play a DVD any better than an upscaling DVD player, so there is no advantage other than having two devices versus one. HDTVs have 3-5 HDMI ports.

 

[knownote]

Why not? Since no DVD player checks for Cinavia, it makes perfect sense. A Bluray player does not play a DVD any better than an upscaling DVD player, so there is no advantage other than having two devices versus one. HDTVs have 3-5 HDMI ports.

It makes sense that it will work, it doesn't make sense that slysoft just says "play it in a dvd player". You can play whatever you want in a dvd player WITHOUT anydvd, or anydvdhd, so if your goal is just to play it in a dvd player, why do you need ANY of slysoft's products?

 

[mmdavis]

It makes sense that it will work, it doesn't make sense that slysoft just says "play it in a dvd player". You can play whatever you want in a dvd player WITHOUT anydvd, or anydvdhd, so if your goal is just to play it in a dvd player, why do you need ANY of slysoft's products?

(1) You cannot make a back-up of your DVD without AnyDVD to remove the protection. (2) You need CloneDVD to shrink to DVD-5 or make a movie only back-up.

 

[Roycal]

Hi, I find its not '' much about ado nothing'' I can say my opinion about the problem right now. You know if this kind of protection begin to be in most popular dvd, that will be sad for all of us its just sharring experience or opinion. Do not jugde the post

You should give up on standalone players and buy an economical Windows compatible mini HTPC. All problems solved. .

IMHO HTPC's are getting to be such a cheap solution to Cinavia that I sometimes wonder if it's mostly the real pirates who are re-sellers that are still asking about better solutions to removing Cinavia. No offense or implications to anyone in particluar .

BTW, on that point of "just use a DVD only standalone player" is a rule of thumb without much substance since the manufacturers could incorporate Cinavia protections with new players. No doubt the newer Sony players all have it. I would be surprised if very many manufacturers even still manufacture "DVD only" standalone players. It's a step backwards for any consumer to buy such a player so there is almost zero market for. You can buy "new old stock" on those old players but it's not a good long term solution to Cinavia. Just more electronic hardware clutter you will pay to have disposed of as hazardous materials eventually.

 

[James]

BTW, on that point of "just use a DVD only standalone player" is a rule of thumb without much substance since the manufacturers could incorporate Cinavia protections with new players. No doubt the newer Sony players all have it.

Really? Why should they? Any evidence?

 

[James]

You should give up on standalone players and buy an economical Windows compatible mini HTPC. All problems solved. .

Yes. Or any player which cannot play original BD discs. (e.g., Kodi based media players)

 

[Philbert]

I'm curious...if the Watermark or Holoimage or modulated audio is present to enable the BD to play, why do my backups of Real Steel and Tron Legacy play fine in a Sony BD player that snapped on the Jurassic World backup DVD with a message, once, about Cinavia and muted audio?
If Bluray backups from 2011 or thereabouts will play on Cinavia polluted BD players, there has to be a pass for specific audio patterns from pre-2011, or my "copies" on Verbatim 50g blanks wouldn't pass Cinavia (I assume with a Cinavia message on a new Jurassic World DVD backup, the Sony has Cinavia) and play uninterrupted on it.
I am now even more ignorant than I was before this...and that was quite a lot.