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Cinavia, Feb, 1, 2012 and forwards

If I recall correctly for Bd-rom booktype setting. All offical player accept to have AACS present or they won't play.
 
Right, that's what they were asking. Could you fool the Cinavia detector by adding AACS and changing the media type to BDROM. I have my doubts. Not that it currently matters since just adding AACS is enough to fool the Cinavia detector into treating the disc as a trusted source. But if I were going that route, I'd want some "future protection" by trying to make it look as close to a commercial BD as possible. Media type certainly comes to mind. But without that ROM-MARK, i'm not sure how foolproof it could be.
 
No, What I am talking about is BD-rom not DVD-Rom. Bd-rom require AACS not DVD-rom.
 
Roycal said:
That 'BD-REC workaround' will probably be plugged when they fully roll out Cinavia to the player manufacturers. No doubt all the interested parties involved are aware of this simple hole by now. I think this initial beta roll out for the PS3 was mostly intended to find simple flaws like that one.

Not sure why they haven't already plugged it, excpet maybe to lull some people into thinking they have solved the problem and discourage/delay further efforts.
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I'm not sure it's an easy thing to fix. Right now the Cinavia check is *EXTREMELY* basic.

1) Detect Cinavia
2) Check for AACS

To "plug the hole" they have to add more to the detection routine. Which seems like a "simple" thing to do but who knows? I mean, I can't imagine it'd be that hard to ascertain if the disc is a BD-ROM, but, honestly, I have no idea.
 
Roycal said:
I thought it was also checking for 'trusted source' as part of the AACS reqs. So maybe they have to fill the hole on the AACS side? Seems like it would be a simple fix. But maybe complicated by "who has to fix it" question.
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No, the presence of AACS is what (currently) validates it as a "trusted source". Hence why the trick of adding AACS on the backup works. So, now, if they want to plug the hole, they have to add additional requirements to what a "trusted source" means, such as checking for media type. So, they took advantage of Cinavia's own definition of what a "trusted source" is. Clever, sure, but, not infallible if they decide to update the Cinavia detection to include additional checks.
 
As I said before, it's not that simple. Someone on another forum mentioned that there isn't just one signal. In fact, there's 7 of them for message 3 at the moment with the ability for them to add more as needed. And it's spread throughout the frequency range. So they're looking for a pattern, not a literal embedded "signal". And that pattern is created by literally transforming the audio before it's compressed and mastered onto the Blu-ray or DVD. It's not going to be an easy thing to defeat. At this point, I'd like to see a detector for it. Something that can definitively scan a disc and say "yes, this is signal 5" or "this has signal 2". Apparently the patents give quite a bit of information on this stuff. I haven't read them myself, but, others have and have provided insight into it.
 
Just read the discussion on the Feb deal in an Oppo thread at another forum. This bothers me because I like ISO copies on an external HDD.

I may stop updating FW when it arrives to see what happens. Id hope Oppo does not initiate it on the 93, but if they are made to they have no choice I guess. Sheesh.
 
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Just need to be careful, that's all. If they add Cinavia, it will be discovered fairly quickly. So, at worst, you'll not update for a few days until other people have a chance to vet the firmware. This goes for all players. I read the Oppo info, as well, and I'm not sure what to think about all that. It really wouldn't surprise me if they tried to shove it down people's throats secretly, but, that's also not guaranteed. They're simply saying, afaik, that any players sold after 2/1/12 need to contain Cinavia detection. What that means for existing players, IF ANYTHING, is not clear. I've speculated that some existing players, especially those mfg'd after september 2008, COULD be updated. Not that they necessarily will. I guess we'll find out soon.
 
Roycal said:
I don't know why everyone thinks this is some new high tech thing.
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i agree with you here. i feel tho that because ppl are perplexed or don't fully know how this protection works in-detail, they are theorizing ... some right, some wrong.

to date the facts are that this protection is in the audio stream. thankfully, that is all. audio is easy to work with. you have an amplitude, frequency and time. and it appears to be present in 1 or more channels. regardless of where the signal is or when it presents itself, even tho it's in the analog spectrum of the stream, once the markers are identified, they can be removed by negating them by subtracting the phase shifted counterpart. so noise cancellation is the direction that cinavia hackers will look into.

the more serious problem may surface where they adapt the algorithm to embed a unique watermark for each individual audio channel, then do the same for video, where they can ID individual pixel colors at certain frames to use for detection.

in the case of audio, lets say your encoder transfers 7.1 audio to 5.1. that could be a cinavia check. in the case of video, if the fps or resolution are changed that could be another check.

this protection scheme has the potential to get really really smart.

but at the end of the day, i keep my mp4's within the walls of my network, and only i play them on my devices, so whether they have cinavia or not really only bothers me when i want to use the PS3 as a playback device.
it will bother me more when cinavia is included in all the kinds of hardware that can stream. that's when i stop buying discs and just use netflix or blockbuster.
 
For the record, I never said this protection couldn't be removed. I only said that it wouldn't be easy and that it'd probably take professional reverse engineers to defeat it. Mainly because it's adaptable. They have provisions to change it once it's been compromised, thus turning it into a cat and mouse game similar to BD+. With enough time I think that a disc or two could be done by "the community" such as they did for BD+. But that was a huge effort and took a long time. I don't think Cinavia will be any different in regards to effort. And this isn't "new", either. It's an evolution of what was done on DVD-Audio. Smarter, more insidious, but, the same basic idea. Look how long that took to break. It's not magic. :D It's a really nasty protection designed with the idea that it will get broken and adapt accordingly. Fun! :)
 
I guess with players and discs already supporting it, testing is underway around here ;)
 
SlySoft has said that it's not a high priority at the moment because the number of players and discs are limited. If that situation changes then the priority will go up. Let's get CloneBD out there first. :D
 
SamuriHL said:
SlySoft has said that it's not a high priority at the moment because the number of players and discs are limited. If that situation changes then the priority will go up. Let's get CloneBD out there first. :D
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Well, I can understand that, BUT (and its a big one), if this was forced on all capable players in Feb, gonna be a lot of ISO users up shat creek.

Might have to look into a Popcorn hour :), unless its got Cinavia...
 
elwaylite said:
Well, I can understand that, BUT (and its a big one), if this was forced on all capable players in Feb, gonna be a lot of ISO users up shat creek.

Might have to look into a Popcorn hour :), unless its got Cinavia...
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Well, we don't KNOW what's going to happen in Feb. All we have is speculation. And my speculation wasn't trying to get people all riled up. I simply wanted to remind people that it's possible that they plan on trying to "enable" this crap in players that have been recently mfg'd. There's NO guarantee they'll do that. The only thing we seem to know is that players sold after 2/1/12 are required to have it. That says nothing about existing players. So, no need to panic just yet.

And to reiterate a very good point James has brought up many times....if a product is NOT licensed by the AACS LA (like, say, most media streamers) there is NO incentive for them to add Cinavia detection to their products. It will not only irritate their customers, but, it'll artificially drive up their own costs. They aren't about to do that willingly.

Actual licensed BD players...who knows what's going to happen. As of today, only the PS3 and a couple other players can detect it. And only what, 35 or so discs contain it? So, not exactly a doomsday scenario. And speculation about what MIGHT happen in the future shouldn't be taken as "OMG I need to panic!" It's just speculation. Discussion. Getting people thinking about what MIGHT be possible. Not what is definite.
 
Savvy users will likely build HTPCs to replace stand-alone players, thus their backups will always be playable.
I have not heard that BD-ROMs are affected by Cinavia. Has this changed?
 
What do you mean by "BD-ROMS"? Are you referring to commercial blu-ray discs or something else?
 
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