Cinavia and a third-party product

[Ch3vr0n]

Vod = video on demand = streamed

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 7 met Tapatalk

 

[Roycal]

Vod = video on demand = streamed

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 7 met Tapatalk

Ah! Ok Thanks very much, Ch3vr0n! That version would also probably be Cinavia free too, but still has the problem of redistribution of copyrighted content. Not that much different than trying to redistribute the Cinavia free DVD audio version. It is still not a re-encoding solution.

 

[Ch3vr0n]

Indeed. But 'cinex' claims to be capable of removing cinavia from such sources and torrents too. Though I still don't trust them one bit

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 7 met Tapatalk

 

[Roycal]

This technique reminds me of the Aereo business model of redistributing local free TV broadcast content on the internet. I was surprised these Aereo guys even tried that. It's obviously a content redistribution service that has been expressly illegal by copyright laws everywhere. The American supreme court ruled against Aereo's right to rebroadcast so called "free content" over the internet.

Aereo's business model was based on they only delivered content that was "over the air" and "free", but the obvious legal problem was that they were delivering the content to paying subscribers who would otherwise not have access to the content. At that point it violates any redistribution laws and copyright laws.

It sounds like these Cinavia guys who are dubbing in alternate Cinavia free audio tracks are doing the same thing only at a much more egregious level.

BTW, I do like Aereo's technical side. The idea of the thousands of tiny antennas distributed on rooftops is great, but they will have to pay the rebroadcast fee's to make it work. Providing a database of Cinavia free Audio? That would never get passed the copyright laws and there is no way the studios would even license that.

 

[cokebottle99]

It sounds like these Cinavia guys who are dubbing in alternate Cinavia free audio tracks are doing the same thing only at a much more egregious level.

Not surprised at all. Lets face it, users were throwing a tantrum regarding the quality, using the old method known as Old CinEx. So he decided to do it the old fashion way instead.

 

[Kerry56]

But if they are substituting audio, why do it in the manner that we've found? It makes very little sense to take sections of the original audio and combine them with other sources, when it would be so much simpler to do a direct replacement.

Nothing about CinEX makes much sense if you assume that the only thing that the Ranger programmers are doing is replacing audio from outside sources. Why go to the trouble of stripping out the middle frequencies and replacing only those?

I'm not offering an answer here, just trying to look at the situation logically. This may of course be a handicap when discussing DVDRanger.

 

[Ch3vr0n]

why whould it not make "sense" in their eyes? The source is already cinavia free, all they have to do is mux it back in and charge easy cash for it. Jackpot$$

Although thats its not a real fix, it makes about as much sense as charging people hard earned cash for a product that hadn't even been out of beta yet when they started cashing in on it. Atleast that's not the slysoft way

 

[Kerry56]

You missed the point. If all they are doing is replacing the audio, why go to the trouble of saving sections of the original audio? What purpose does it serve to still have the extreme upper and lower frequencies of the original audio if they have a complete audio stream from a source that has no Cinavia at all? Their working path makes no sense if this is the case.

Replacing the entire audio stream with an uninfected stream is far easier to do. So why do they keep the upper and lower frequencies? No one has come up with a good explanation for this process.

Even if they are simply replacing audio, this still might be a handy solution for those who are not concerned about HD quality sound, and are satisfied with the current results. If DVDRanger and his henchmen had actually presented it in this manner, I doubt there would have been as much controversy. It would be a nice service for those not technically capable of replacing the audio themselves. But DVDRanger et al claimed to have "defeated" the protection instead. And you know the result. They have got to be the worst PR managers in the history of video tools.

 

[rotty dog]

Quote: Replacing the entire audio stream with an uninfected stream is far easier to do. So why do they keep the upper and lower frequencies? No one has come up with a good explanation for this process.


The reason(s) are:

Firstly, he can say that he is NOT replacing the audio, (he is of course, just not the entire stream)

Secondly, the file size is much smaller, (you have to download the so called "Database" file you require)

Thirdly, he tried to keep secret what he was actually doing, it would have been totally obvious if he had replaced the entire audio stream.
His small part audio file "Database" was made to NOT look like an audio file. He was hoping to fool us.

 

[Kerry56]

Can't say that I'm convinced that those are good reasons. They did not expect anyone to examine the database files and discover what was in them. Not without reverse engineering the program itself, and that is not something that most of us can do, or would do. From their reactions, I'm certain that Adbear hit them from the blind side in his methods.

So I don't think they were worried about covering their tracks in the content of the database files, or disguising their process. They thought the precautions that they had already taken, in making the files only open with their program would be enough. If that is true, and I believe it is, why would they not just use entire sound tracks?

The file size would not have been particularly larger with the extreme frequencies left in. There isn't much difference between downloading a 100mb file and downloading a 120mb file. The effort to compress, decompress and combine two different audio formats is far more trouble than simply providing the entire sound track. So, following this logical train of thought, there must be something else we are not seeing. Either they are processing the original sound in the mid ranges in some way, or there is some other benefit to the original extreme frequencies that I cannot see.

 

[rotty dog]

Can't say that I'm convinced that those are good reasons. They did not expect anyone to examine the database files and discover what was in them. Not without reverse engineering the program itself, and that is not something that most of us can do, or would do. From their reactions, I'm certain that Adbear hit them from the blind side in his methods.

So I don't think they were worried about covering their tracks in the content of the database files, or disguising their process. They thought the precautions that they had already taken, in making the files only open with their program would be enough. If that is true, and I believe it is, why would they not just use entire sound tracks?

The file size would not have been particularly larger with the extreme frequencies left in. There isn't much difference between downloading a 100mb file and downloading a 120mb file. The effort to compress, decompress and combine two different audio formats is far more trouble than simply providing the entire sound track. So, following this logical train of thought, there must be something else we are not seeing. Either they are processing the original sound in the mid ranges in some way, or there is some other benefit to the original extreme frequencies that I cannot see.

The file size (HD MA) would have been massively larger.

 

[Kerry56]

^Well yes, of course, but if they are changing the format of the middle sections and compressing it, keeping the extreme frequencies wouldn't have changed the file size much at all.

 

[Kerry56]

This is just a what if, but lets say they are taking the middle section frequencies from a different source in order to avoid the Cinavia signal. Would keeping the extreme high and low frequencies from the original audio help them adjust and keep the timing of the audio/visual sync correct?

 

[rotty dog]

This is just a what if, but lets say they are taking the middle section frequencies from a different source in order to avoid the Cinavia signal. Would keeping the extreme high and low frequencies from the original audio help them adjust and keep the timing of the audio/visual sync correct?

It enables the audio track to keep "some" respectability" of the original "good" audio. I do say Some.

 

[Kerry56]

I don't think that they are trying to make the borrowed audio sound better by combining it with the DTS HD MA high and low frequencies. If they wanted good sound, not great, but good sound, the intact AC3 from a DVD would be fine, without all these extra steps of filtering out sections.

What I'm trying to do is find some good technical reason for keeping those original high and low frequencies. And the only thing I can come up with is some sort of aid in timing with the original video. A marker, perhaps placed at a particular point at the start of the movie in the frequencies left from the original audio, and a matching one in the new, compressed audio from another source. A DVD and Blu-ray may not differ much once the movie starts, but they might not be identical up to that point.

 

[rotty dog]

I don't think that they are trying to make the borrowed audio sound better by combining it with the DTS HD MA high and low frequencies. If they wanted good sound, not great, but good sound, the intact AC3 from a DVD would be fine, without all these extra steps of filtering out sections.

What I'm trying to do is find some good technical reason for keeping those original high and low frequencies. And the only thing I can come up with is some sort of aid in timing with the original video. A marker, perhaps placed at a particular point at the start of the movie in the frequencies left from the original audio, and a matching one in the new, compressed audio from another source. A DVD and Blu-ray may not differ much once the movie starts, but they might not be identical up to that point.

You would have to have those high frequencies present in the Database audio and overlay it on the existing audio in order to get any hope of timing in this way, and then adjust the audio accordingly.
A very complex issue and not at all needed.
You don't need to do that, the timing info is in the streams anyway.

 

[Kerry56]

Well, I'm just spit-balling here. As I said, I haven't figured out a good technical reason for the existence of the high and low frequencies when an intact AC3 stream from a DVD would suffice.

Figuring out the original timing and matching that with the new one is probably easier than markers. Still, the basic idea of using whats left from the original audio as a guide for the new one in audio/video sync is still viable, just improbable since they could just as easily do that with an intact stream as they build the database, rather than just the middle frequencies.

I have never claimed to be an audio expert by the way.

 

[Roycal]

Regarding the preserving of the high and low frequencies, has anyone actually verified that they do this? If so, that is very interesting and would not be an easy thing to seamlessly re-insert these frequencies back into the Cinavia free audio.

The only problem is with re-distributing copyrighted material. The audio tracks are copyrighted and It's not really any different than selling or re-distributing pirated copies of the whole movie.

 

[Kerry56]

Regarding the preserving of the high and low frequencies, has anyone actually verified that they do this? If so, that is very interesting and would not be an easy thing to seamlessly re-insert these frequencies back into the Cinavia free audio.

The only problem is with re-distributing copyrighted material. The audio tracks are copyrighted and It's not really any different than selling or re-distributing pirated copies of the whole movie.

Yes, Adbear discovered this first. CinEx does strip out the middle frequencies and leaves the very high and low frequencies from the DTS HD MA audio. I followed his working path and confirmed his results. No one knows for certain the provenance of the middle frequencies that are put back in.

 

[Trimmer]

questionAbout Cinavia

Has anyone tried to come up with a way to re-flash the player with something like a Jtag to remove Cinavia from the firmware?

Trimmer