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Blocked BD copy playback (Cinavia)

Just some speculation.

The watermark is embedded in the actual aduio itself.
The method used needs to be inaudible ( like tweeking a LS-bit every so often ). But that's not good enough, because it needs to be robust enough to be detectable in a microphone camcorder recording.

So they are not just bit-twiddling. That wouldn't survive the background noise on a camcorder recording, or even a re-encode.

I suspect they are actually creating a very low-rate data stream by introducing detectable acoustic signatures, below the noise-floor ( for them, the noise floor is the program audio. ) I think it likely that they are using correlation techniques. I suspect they are working in the frequency domain, adding a known spectrum of energy peaks at certain frequencies. The player will perform fourrier analysis on the audio stream, to give a spectrum. This will be correlated against the known spectrum, and where the correlellogram goes above some threshold, that will be a '1'. Since the signal level will be very low, the correlation window lengths will likely be large, and also averaged over a longish time ( perhaps tens of seconds ).
This gives a low data rate, which accounts for the times it takes to kick in.

To kill it, we'd need to know the correlation they are looking for. That's reverse-engineering. Once we can read their data stream by observing the correlation peaks come and go, we'd then need to apply carefull filtering to knock back the energy peaks which account for the correlation. You minimise the filtering to reduce the correlation peak to only below the detection threshold.

Then the trivial matter of re-encoding the audio :)



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SC

Ummmmmm, hmmmmm. Yea, uh, about that. I think I'm going to stick with my MKV/ffdshow solution. :D
 
I'd be more concerned about the watermark becoming self-aware. 2:14am EST on August 29th is when the Mayans predicted this would happen--now where are they?!

Just sayin. ;)
 
Ummmmmm, hmmmmm. Yea, uh, about that. I think I'm going to stick with my MKV/ffdshow solution. :D
Are you sure your PS3 won't catch the Cinavia watermark in your MKV/ffdshow stream? :doh:

Question: Has anyone encountered Cinavia errors when playing an ORIGINAL disc in a PC with AnyDVD HD running? If retail Cinavia is triggered by removing AACS, then Cinavia-enabled software players should balk at even ORIGINAL discs when AnyDVD HD is active. (Of course, the real question is what software players out there are Cinavia-enabled? Maybe this will make "February" come a lot faster for SlyPlayer...)
 
I'd be more concerned about the watermark becoming self-aware. 2:14am EST on August 29th is when the Mayans predicted this would happen--now where are they?!

Just sayin. ;)
Sure you're not confusing the Mayans with John Connor, or Cinavia with Skynet? :D
 
Are you sure your PS3 won't catch the Cinavia watermark in your MKV/ffdshow stream? :doh:

Who said anything about the PS3 being part of that equation?! :D ffdshow is what allows me to play my MKV on my (far more expensive than the PS3) HTPC's. :) Fully bitstreaming and PGS subtitle support included.

Question: Has anyone encountered Cinavia errors when playing an ORIGINAL disc in a PC with AnyDVD HD running? If retail Cinavia is triggered by removing AACS, then Cinavia-enabled software players should balk at even ORIGINAL discs when AnyDVD HD is active. (Of course, the real question is what software players out there are Cinavia-enabled? Maybe this will make "February" come a lot faster for SlyPlayer...)

This is why I asked the OP to test his disc with a software player. I guess we'll find out eventually. I have the Losers on order (looks like a movie I'd enjoy else I wouldn't have bothered) so I can test it with all the players next Tuesday.
 
i've tested Losers (bd copy or avi rip) with various players (lg bd370, tmt, pdvd, windvd, nero). none seemed to know about cinavia. only ps3 has the watermark detector.
 
i've tested Losers (bd copy or avi rip) with various players (lg bd370, tmt, pdvd, windvd, nero). none seemed to know about cinavia. only ps3 has the watermark detector.

Well, that's good to know. I suspect that situation will change in the coming months. It doesn't help the hardware player guys though. PS3 is unfortunately not the only hardware player that "supports" this nonsense. But at least we HTPC guys can relax for a while. :)
 
Well at least the software players are quite mature now. Sounds like we may have to test any new versions and could end up sticking with what we have for a good while. Fortunately I don't give a monkey's about all that 3D nonsense (in the home on a 46" screen at least).
 
Well, that's good to know. I suspect that situation will change in the coming months. It doesn't help the hardware player guys though. PS3 is unfortunately not the only hardware player that "supports" this nonsense. But at least we HTPC guys can relax for a while. :)
I presume you are saying that in order to play Cinavia discs on a set-top player, that set-top player will need a firmware upgrade, and that firmware upgrade will cripple its ability to play copies-of-cinavia discs?

But then one might avoid that by never updating the firmware, and relegating the player to playing only copies? :confused:
 
Well at least the software players are quite mature now. Sounds like we may have to test any new versions and could end up sticking with what we have for a good while. Fortunately I don't give a monkey's about all that 3D nonsense (in the home on a 46" screen at least).

Yea, that's not the part that concerns me. We're good so long as SlySoft stays on top of the BD+ crap. What concerns me the most is we get into another situation where they update BD+ like they did for Avatar and it takes a couple (days/weeks/whatever) for SlySoft to get an update out. In the meantime, players all release an update to "fix the problem" as they did for Avatar. What's to stop them from slipping this crap in there? If you're patient and can wait for AnyDVD to get updated, not a problem. That does not describe the majority of people on this forum. :D
 
I presume you are saying that in order to play Cinavia discs on a set-top player, that set-top player will need a firmware upgrade, and that firmware upgrade will cripple its ability to play copies-of-cinavia discs?

But then one might avoid that by never updating the firmware, and relegating the player to playing only copies? :confused:

No, what I'm saying is...you get another "Avatar" type disc that requires a firmware update. BOOM, they add this crap in there and suddenly cinavia is enabled. Same scenario I just outlined for software players. How patient are you? Can you wait several weeks to be able to play a new title on your set top player? Without updating the firmware to play the original? Good luck...
 
Yea, that's not the part that concerns me. We're good so long as SlySoft stays on top of the BD+ crap. What concerns me the most is we get into another situation where they update BD+ like they did for Avatar and it takes a couple (days/weeks/whatever) for SlySoft to get an update out. In the meantime, players all release an update to "fix the problem" as they did for Avatar. What's to stop them from slipping this crap in there? If you're patient and can wait for AnyDVD to get updated, not a problem. That does not describe the majority of people on this forum. :D
Fortunately, that is just fine for me. But I agree, it's ugly.

But I cannot wait until the serious audiophiles get hold of this. How many times have we been told various compression schemes etc. will be "indistinuishable" only to find out something very different. I can't believe we finally have bit-perfect, uncompressed HD audio and then they start adding other c*** to it.
 
Fortunately, that is just fine for me. But I agree, it's ugly.

But I cannot wait until the serious audiophiles get hold of this. How many times have we been told various compression schemes etc. will be "indistinuishable" only to find out something very different. I can't believe we finally have bit-perfect, uncompressed HD audio and then they start adding other c*** to it.

Yea, I agree with that, too. The whole "you won't hear it" thing has been stated many many times. We shall see. If it's done right, you won't, but, I have my doubts on how "well" it was done.

In any case, we'll see how the player situation plays out. The scenario I outlined above is what concerns me most. Can you imagine this crap implemented on a BD+ title like Avatar? Oh yea, that's a good time. :D
 
This is a form of steganography and it likely covers the entire frequency range.

It's kind of like this I bet, but way way way more subtle:

aphex.png

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphex_Twin#Artwork)

It's not that it's not audible, it is, but this company came up with patterns that the human brain just really doesn't notice.

Here's a site that lets you embed whatever text you want into any image you want so that it's undetectable just by looking at it, but still recoverable:

http://mozaiq.org/encrypt/
http://mozaiq.org/decrypt/

Here's an example (right click -> save picture as, then use the "decypt" link above to upload the picture (leave password blank) and reveal the message I put in):

encrypted.png


How would you "remove" something like that?

Very clever, unfortunately.
 
No, what I'm saying is...you get another "Avatar" type disc that requires a firmware update. BOOM, they add this crap in there and suddenly cinavia is enabled.

It may not be as easy as that... I noticed that the article I linked earlier said that hardware players that support this weren't released until the second half of 2009. If your player is pre 2009, it may not be possible for it to support Cinavia via a firmware update. The PS3 is different as it's basically a computer running in a secure enviroment. (Again, all my own speculation, and I'm no expert.)
 
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It may not be as easy as that... I noticed that the article I linked earlier said that hardware players that support this weren't released until the second half of 2009. If your player is pre 2009, it may not be possible for it to support Cinavia via a firmware update. The PS3 is different as it's basically a computer running in a secure enviroment. (Again, all my own speculation, and I'm no expert.)

That would be fine with me. However, all new players are screwed.
 
Again, not so sure, as you may be able to roll back firmware on many players via a CD-R or DVD-R flash, unlike the PS3.

Rollback to what? I said *NEW* players that come with this crap built in with the first release. :)
 
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