AnyDVD vs. DVDFab + Backing up with Alcohol Virtual Drive

Discussion in 'AnyDVD HD (DVD issues)' started by az_raiden, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. az_raiden

    az_raiden Well-Known Member

    *** Update #1 at the bottom

    After reading many posts about people complaining about AnyDVD being slow to overcome new protection methods and DVDFab being "Johnny on the spot", I thought that I would take a moment and waste your time explaining how I back up my DVDs, and why I think that DVDFab is NOT the PERFECT solution.

    NOTE: I own a valid license(s) for DVDFab Platinum and ALL of the Slysoft programs, and any other software mentioned in this post.

    First things first, a backup is only good if you can get the same results from the copy as you would from the original. Case in point: I "cloned" "Blades of Glory" using DVDFab Platinum, the version released on the same Tuesday as "Blades of Glory". While it seemed to be OK, when I ripped the movie to ZUNE format, the movie didn't play correctly. After encountering a few more anomalies with the backup, I resigned to the fact that DVDFab wasn't able to make a working "clone".

    After AnyDVD v6.1.7.2 beta was released, I tried a trick. My normal backup method is to create an ISO image using UltraISO and AnyDVD running in the background. NOTE: I use DVDFab when I want to combine discs or put original DVD9 movies on 2 discs [something Elaboratebytes should have added long ago]. I disable the removal of autorun.inf and trailers, etc. In other words, I want an exact clone except for the protection(s). I had one problem movie, "Infamous", that even AnyDVD could never make a perfect/working clone of. So, here's the trick: I created the ISO image with UltraISO as usual. I then loaded that ISO image in my Alcohol 120% virtual drive with AnyDVD still enabled. Guess what, AnyDVD reported that there were STILL protections on the DVD in the virtual drive. I then used UltraISO to create an ISO image of the ISO image loaded in the virtual drive. After its creation, I reloaded the second-time-around ISO image in the virtual drive - AnyDVD reported no further protections. I reloaded about twenty DVDs that I had ISO images of on my hard drive in my alcohol virtual drive and many of them STILL had some type of protection. I re-cloned some of them, and it looks like that it takes at least two passes through AnyDVD to strip all of the protections. I also tried this trick using just DVDFab as the cloner, and loading the DVDFab ISO image in the virtual drive with AnyDVD enabled the second time-you guessed right, there were still some protections in the ISO images. This was the case with at least most of the latest DVD's that I have bought recently.

    I think that perhaps AnyDVD will have to take a note from GDatas AntiVirenkit Anti-Virus program: it loads two separate scanners to scan for viruses, if the first scanner misses, the second one will usually stop the virus. Perhaps that's what has to happen with these heavily protected DVD's: AnyDVD makes one scan, makes its corrections and protection removals, and then scans the newly generated IFO files a second time to see if anything was missed the first time, or, if further corrections still need to be made. This would at least save me from having to make two separate ISO images every time I clone a DVD.

    I realize that there are lots of variables including the emulation settings of the Alcohol virtual drive, but from what I've seen, I'm having to use this method now to get a "clean" clone of practically all of the new DVDs (just me repeating myself).

    Just thought I would throw this out there to see if anyone else has done something like this or exactly the same and achieved similar results.

    Comments and questions welcome of course.

    az_raiden
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2007
  2. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    There was a big 1 day difference between Anydvd being able to handle Blades of Glory and Dvdfab being able to properly. Whoo boy . . . And that has been discussed to death.


    You can split a dvd-9 across two discs using Clonedvd2 and retain the main menus (if you want). Use the scissor icon.

    As for the rest of what you wrote, Anydvd is not intended for use with Alcohol 120%'s virtual drives (which also adds protection emulation itself into this whole equation). I wouldn't trust what Anydvd reports from Alcohol 120% virtual drives.

    If you want a 1:1 copy, use Clonecd and Verbatim+R DL. If Anydvd reports protection remaining on the disc after, then you may have a point.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2007
  3. Coaster

    Coaster Well-Known Member

    @ az_raiden,

    Welcome to the Forum.

    The function of this Forum is not to go tit for tat with DVDFab Platinum, UltraISO, or Alcohol 120% software programs. If you want to discuss the virtuous of those software perhaps you should visit those Web Forums.

    You state that you have valid licenses for all the SlySoft software programs. The AnyDVD/CloneCD combination will do the same ISO functions that you are using UltraISO to perform. AnyDVD/CloneDVD will perform DVD9 two DVD splitting functions that you are using DVDFab Platinum to perform.

    The Alcohol 120% virtual drive is plagued with all types of abnormality problems and data obtained from this program is considered highly suspect. The SlySoft Technical Staff have on occasions requested that Alcohol 120% not be installed in conjunction with AnyDVD. Both programs work on the lower driver level and conflicts can occur.

    So it appears that your real problem is that you have failed to fully explore the full capabilities of the SlySoft/Elaborate Bytes software programs that you own and are relying on using UltraISO/ DVDFab Platinum. That is your choice but don’t falsely claim the SlySoft/Elaborate Bytes software programs are unable to perform functions you are using UltraISO/DVDFab Platinum to perform.

    Regards,
    Coaster
     
  4. Zeratul

    Zeratul Well-Known Member

    do you have any emulation enabled in alcohol??
     
  5. az_raiden

    az_raiden Well-Known Member

    Update # 1

    After reading the responses to my original post, I decided to do some real scientific investigation and see whether or not anything that I or anyone else was saying was true or false. I just want everyone to know that I am doing this so that I can achieve the cleanest backup possible. After all, it does no good to do a backup that still has some type of protection. I have done this more for my own information, interest and backup purposes than as a response to anyone's comments.

    Myth # 1 - Anydvd is not intended for use with Alcohol 120%'s virtual drives (which also adds protection emulation itself into this whole equation). You can't,"trust what Anydvd reports from Alcohol 120% virtual drives." (quoted from webslinger)

    I started by creating an ISO image of the original "Blades of Glory" using UltraISO and CloneCD, with AnyDVD running in the background. I also created an ISO image (clone) using DVDFab without AnyDVD. After creating these three ISO images, I created md5 checksums for each. The UltraISO and CloneCD checksums were IDENTICAL. The DVDFab checksum was unique-different than the other two. I assume the UltraISO and CloneCD checksums are identical due to the fact that they were both created with AnyDVD running in the background, and because DVDFab uses its own, different "magic wand". I then loaded each ISO image in Alcohol 120% virtual drive. I did this two differnet times, the first with NO emulation settings checked, and the second time with ALL emulation settings checked. Each time I loaded an ISO image, I created an md5 checksum file. After comparing the six virtual drive md5 files (remember - 3 images No emulation, 3 images YES emulation) to the ISO image md5 files, I found no differences between like files. I also burned the CloneCD ISO image to a Verbatim DVD+R DL [DVD9] disc. I then created an md5 checksum file for it (a real burned DVD in the DVD drive - not virtual). The checksums were IDENTICAL to those of the CloneCD ISO image and CloneCD ISO image loaded in the alcohol virtual drive.

    I then reloaded the burned DVD9 into the DVD drive with AnyDVD running in the background and guess what...well, for now, let's just say that AnyDVD still reported a problem with it. I then created a CloneCD ISO image of the burned DVD9. I also loaded the DVDFab ISO image into the virtual drive and created a clone of it with DVDFab to see what the result was. I then loaded the DVDFab #2 image into the virtual drive to see what AnyDVD would say. I loaded the second-time-around CloneCD ISO image in Alcohol's virtual drive(I did it this way since I've pretty much proven that Alcohol has no effect), and well, I'll show you the information results for all three instances. Remember, drive Z: is my virtual drive, while drive Y: is my Plextor PX-760A.

    ==========================================================
    BLADES OF GLORY [2007][AZ]
    ==========================================================
    ==========================================================
    ORIGINAL DVD
    ==========================================================

    Summary for drive Y: (AnyDVD 6.1.7.4)
    PLEXTOR DVDRPX-760A 1.06 12/26/0609:00
    Drive (Hardware) Region: 1

    Media is a DVD.
    Booktype: dvd-rom (version 1), Layers: 2 (opposite)
    Size of first Layer: 2084928 sectors (4072 MBytes)
    Total size: 3721520 sectors (7268 MBytes)

    Video DVD (or CD) label: BLADES_OF_GLORY_16X9
    Media is CSS protected!
    Video Standard: NTSC
    Media is locked to region(s): 1 4!

    RCE protection not found.
    DVD structure appears to be correct.
    Found & removed structural copy protection (Arccos, Puppetlock)!
    Found & removed bogus title set!
    Found & removed 11 bad sector protections!
    Emulating RPC-2 drive with region 1!

    ==========================================================
    CLONECD ISO IMAGE #1 LOADED IN ALCOHOL 120% VIRTUAL DRIVE
    ==========================================================
    This ISO was created with AnyDVD running in the background - 1st pass.
    ==========================================================

    Summary for drive Z: (AnyDVD 6.1.7.4)
    CD0699U HPF444Z 2.0B
    Drive (Hardware) Region: 1

    Media is a DVD.
    Booktype: dvd-rom (version 1), Layers: 1
    Total size: 3721520 sectors (7268 MBytes)

    Video DVD (or CD) label: BLADES_OF_GLORY_16X9
    Media is not CSS protected.
    Video Standard: NTSC
    Media is region free.

    RCE protection not found.
    Found & removed wrong DVD structure!
    Structural copy protection not found.
    Bad sector protection not found.
    Emulating RPC-2 drive with region 1!

    ==========================================================
    CLONECD ISO IMAGE #1 BURNED TO VERBATIM DVD9
    ==========================================================
    This the burned DVD of the ISO image listed above.
    ==========================================================
    Summary for drive Y: (AnyDVD 6.1.7.4)
    PLEXTOR DVDRPX-760A 1.06 12/26/0609:00
    Drive (Hardware) Region: 1

    Media is a DVD.
    Booktype: dvd-rom (version 1), Layers: 2 (opposite)
    Size of first Layer: 2084928 sectors (4072 MBytes)
    Total size: 3721520 sectors (7268 MBytes)

    Video DVD (or CD) label: BLADES_OF_GLORY_16X9
    Media is not CSS protected.
    Video Standard: NTSC
    Media is region free.

    RCE protection not found.
    Found & removed wrong DVD structure!
    Structural copy protection not found.
    Bad sector protection not found.
    Emulating RPC-2 drive with region 1!

    ==========================================================
    CLONE CD ISO IMAGE #2 LOADED IN ALCOHOL 120% VIRTUAL DRIVE
    ==========================================================
    This ISO was created from the CloneCD #1 ISO image (in Alcohol virtual
    drive) with AnyDVD running in the background - AnyDVD 2nd pass.
    ==========================================================
    Summary for drive Z: (AnyDVD 6.1.7.4)
    CD0699U HPF444Z 2.0B
    Drive (Hardware) Region: 1

    Media is a DVD.
    Booktype: dvd-rom (version 1), Layers: 1
    Total size: 3721520 sectors (7268 MBytes)

    Video DVD (or CD) label: BLADES_OF_GLORY_16X9
    Media is not CSS protected.
    Video Standard: NTSC
    Media is region free.

    RCE protection not found.
    DVD structure appears to be correct.
    Structural copy protection not found.
    Bad sector protection not found.
    Emulating RPC-2 drive with region 1!

    ==========================================================
    DVDFAB ISO IMAGE #2 LOADED IN ALCOHOL 120% VIRTUAL DRIVE
    ==========================================================
    This is the DVDFab #2 ISO created after running the first DVDFab ISO Image
    back through DVDFab again - DVDFab 2nd pass.
    ==========================================================

    Summary for drive Z: (AnyDVD 6.1.7.4)
    CD0699U HPF444Z 2.0B
    Drive (Hardware) Region: 1

    Media is a DVD.
    Booktype: dvd-rom (version 1), Layers: 1
    Total size: 3721519 sectors (7268 MBytes)

    Video DVD (or CD) label: BLADES_OF_GLORY_16X9
    Media is not CSS protected.
    Video Standard: NTSC
    Media is region free.

    RCE protection not found.
    Found & removed wrong DVD structure!
    Structural copy protection not found.
    Bad sector protection not found.
    Emulating RPC-2 drive with region 1!
    ================================================

    From what we can see above, "Found & removed wrong DVD structure!" was the error being reported after having "cloned" with AnyDVD the first time. Funny that it should only appear after the DVD was processed with AnyDVD. The original DVD info stated "DVD structure appears to be correct." So what is it that AnyDVD does itself to screw up the structure? Or is this just a by-product of "fixing" the other protections. It is only after loading the first ISO image and cloning it with AnyDVD to create a second ISO image, does the "Found & removed wrong DVD structure!" message go away. I also point out that DVDFab's second pass ISO image is still being reported by AnyDVD to have: "Found & removed wrong DVD structure!" What this actually means, I'm not sure. It might mean a lot of things-it might not. After comparing the #1 pass and #2 pass IFO files with my hex editor, it was surprising to find how little was different. I will have to do a more detailed study of this with IFOEdit.

    CONCLUSION # 1 - I can only determine that Alcohol's virtual drive and its emulation settings, made to work with game protection schemes, have NO adverse effect whatsoever on a loaded DVD-VIDEO image. It seems that the information that AnyDVD gets from the virtual drive is not construed or corrupted in any kind of way. If there was the least bit of difference in the ISO image and the virtual drive, I think that I would have seen it in the checksums. To restate the already stated, the checksums for the original ISO, the virtual loaded image, and the burned DVD9 disc were all identical. Differences?... there were none.

    CONCLUSION # 2 - As seen in the AnyDVD information reports themselves, "DVD structure appears to be correct." is reported for the original DVD. "Found & removed wrong DVD structure!" is still being reported after having cloned the DVD the first time. After performing a second cloning, it goes away. It's OK, then it's broken, then it's fixed again. Obviously AnyDVD isn't getting it all right the first time around. A second pass is needed to get rid of the dreaded "Found & removed wrong DVD structure!" whatever it means.

    I hope this information has shed a little light on maybe some previously held false ideas, or at least rekindled the need to share more information about the programs that we use. Whatever happens, I'm going to keep an open mind, beacuse in the end, our only goal is to get to the bottom of this.

    CONCLUSION # 3 - It's 2AM in the morning, I've been typing for 3 hrs, I've spent the last two days getting these tests done: I'm tired. Time to go to bed. I haven't spell checked this, so don't laugh too hard. :)

    yours truly, az_raiden
     
  6. Zeratul

    Zeratul Well-Known Member

    wow :clap::clap:

    nice job.

    confirmed what i had been previously guessing.
     
  7. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    In the past, having run games with Alcohol 120%'s virtual drives without any emulation running (games that didn't work when I wasn't running Alcohol 120% . . . had nothing to do with atip either), I again state that I would find it hard to trust what Anydvd reports from images mounted in Alcohol's 120%'s virtual drives. Moreover, I find it odd that you would 1) solely create isos and 2) run a second pass on a mounted virtual Alcohol virutal drive.

    That said, your observations do seem somewhat plausible to me, though, considering this thread (where Anydvd was doing something a bit strange to a completely unprotected disc): http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=7623&page=2

    Do not create .isos. Do not mount them. Run second passes on the backup disc to create another backup disc. If that does something different, then I'd agree that something weird is going on (such as Anydvd wasn't properly replacing bad sectors with dummies for this particular disc and Clonecd). But running Anydvd to test mounted images in Alcohol 120%'s virtual drives doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2007
  8. oldjoe

    oldjoe Well-Known Member

    There is no "Perfect Solution" to backing up DVD's.
    My copy of Blades, using Fab Platinum, was a perfect copy.
     
  9. Pelvis Popcan

    Pelvis Popcan Well-Known Member

    AnyDVD has always done this.

    I always do "clone" backups.

    I would say for the past two or so years, when checking what AnyDVD reports to "cloned" backups, the "wrong DVD structure" error is normal.

    DVDFab also does this. It even retains it when "cloning" the clone.

    The backups always play with all features working without issue.

    Therefore, this is just an anomaly to me. A non-issue. The backups work, they themselves can be backed up, everything's fine.
     
  10. Pelvis Popcan

    Pelvis Popcan Well-Known Member

    In this example, matching MD5 checksums, and matching data from AnyDVD window. I don't have a problem "trusting" that.
     
  11. Coaster

    Coaster Well-Known Member

    @ az_raiden,

    You have now drifted away from the scope of your original posting in this thread. You were informed that AnyDVD/CloneCD combination will do the same ISO functions that you were using UltraISO to perform and that AnyDVD/CloneDVD will perform DVD9 two DVD splitting functions that you were using DVDFab Platinum to perform. You have now demonstrated that both CloneCD and UltraISO in fact perform the same ISO functions and it appears that you have acknowledged the fact that CloneDVD does in fact split DVD9 Commercial DVD Movies to two DVD disks.

    Once again both the AnyDVD and Alcohol 120% software programs are low-level drivers and are attempting to perform the same low-level functions. SlySoft Technical Staff to prevent low-level driver conflicts have asked not to have AnyDVD and Alcohol 120% installed simultaneously. Eventually with all your ‘experimenting’ you will encounter low-level driver conflict problems. I summarize that your next complaint will be that AnyDVD causes low-level driver conflict with Alcohol 120%. Once again any “Results” derived when both AnyDVD and Alcohol 120% installed simultaneously is suspect.

    The Alcohol 120% software program is not a flawless software program. Suggest visiting some of the Web Forums that have an “Alcohol 120%” forum and review the postings by Alcohol 120% users.

    It appears that you are now attempting to fabricate a problem where an actual problem doesn’t exist. NO computer software program is divinely created prefect. The SlySoft/Elaborate bytes software program do an outstanding job in the functions that they were designed to perform. If you don’t like the manner in which they perform no one is forcing you to use these software programs.

    Regards,
    Coaster
     
  12. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    The checksums, yes. The info derived from Alcohol's virtual drive, no. Anydvd may or may not be reporting accurate information in this case, but with respect to Alcohol 120%'s virtual drives, I doubt that's always the case (or at least, I have sufficient cause not to trust the information).
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2007
  13. Pelvis Popcan

    Pelvis Popcan Well-Known Member

    It appears you are now attempting to attack the original poster by accusing him of "fabricating a problem."

    All he's saying is that when AnyDVD makes a clone backup using different ISO programs, AnyDVD displays its "wrong DVD structure" error message when the cloned ISO is placed in the drive. (It also occurs using a "virtual drive" on the ISO image.)

    He wants to know why, as he's worried that something isn't working correctly.

    It's a valid question. While it's been my experience that backups that trigger the "wrong DVD structure" message don't have any problems, I for one would still be interested in knowing why it occurs.
     
  14. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator


    Out of curiosity, is this issue specific to original discs containing structural protections such as Arccos? If so, provided I get some time tonight, I'll try to reproduce this with Clonecd. Probably a 1:1 disc copy issue then, since Anydvd doesn't alter .vobs on the fly and relies on Anydvd ripper to clean that junk completely. You can then create an .iso from those ripped files (but you do lose the original layer break info).

    I'm not bashing Alcohol 120%, by the way. I'm only observing that it's virtual drives in the past (granted, this was with an older version of Alcohol), even with emulation options disabled, still exhibited different behaviour when launching a game than if Alcohol had been completely disabled. Subsequently, I wouldn't trust what Anydvd states from Alcohol 120%'s virtual drives. This also holds true for Daemon Tools, upon which, Alcohol 120%'s virtual drives are based.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2007
  15. DrinkLyeAndDie

    DrinkLyeAndDie Retired Moderator

    Remember this post I made about Perfect Stranger? Note the incorrect disc structure on the mounted ISOs made using CloneCD and Nero but not CloneDVD2 or ImgBurn. When I did burn one of the images with the warning the resulting burned disc had no incorrect disc structure when viewed with AnyDVD from the DVD drive. I haven't paid any attention since and I do not have Daemon Tools installed.

    Anyway, in the end James said to just ignore it.
     
  16. Webslinger

    Webslinger Retired Moderator

    O.k. Yeah, that's typical on my clonecd backups with discs containing some sort of structural protection.
    And My Stranger Than Fiction clonecd backup can not be opened in Shrink with or without Anydvd running in the background. So that suggests to me that Anydvd+Clonecd backups do retain some of the original protection. These backups do play fine. Consequently, I don't care.

    As I've never bothered to backup a clonecd backup I've never noticed the difference, and no, I can't account for the difference. I almost guarantee if I attempted to backup this clonecd backup, clonecd would exhibit the same behaviour as on The Lookout (sector read errors), but it would probably work.

    A Clonecd backup of Stranger Than Fiction looks like this:

    Summary for drive F: (AnyDVD 6.1.7.4)
    Drive (Hardware) Region: 1

    Media is a DVD.
    Booktype: dvd-rom (version 1), Layers: 2 (opposite)
    Size of first Layer: 2084960 sectors (4072 MBytes)
    Total size: 4169920 sectors (8144 MBytes)

    Video DVD (or CD) label: Stranger Than Fiction
    Media is not CSS protected.
    Video Standard: NTSC
    Media is region free.

    RCE protection not found.
    Found & removed wrong DVD structure!
    Found & removed invalid VOBUs!

    Autorun not found on Video DVD.
    Bad sector protection not found.
    Emulating RPC-2 drive with region 1!

    If I wanted to make a backup without any protection, I would use Clonedvd or Anydvd ripper. Then I would probably create my own layer break position using another program. But as I'm too lazy, and since the backup works, I don't really care.

    The original looks like

    Summary for drive F: (AnyDVD 6.1.7.4)
    Drive (Hardware) Region: 1

    Media is a DVD.
    Booktype: dvd-rom (version 1), Layers: 2 (opposite)
    Size of first Layer: 2084960 sectors (4072 MBytes)
    Total size: 4169920 sectors (8144 MBytes)

    Video DVD (or CD) label: Stranger Than Fiction
    Media is CSS protected!
    Video Standard: NTSC
    Media is locked to region(s): 1!

    RCE protection not found.
    DVD structure appears to be correct.
    Found & removed structural copy protection (Arccos, Puppetlock)!
    Found & removed bogus title set!
    Found & removed Autorun from Video DVD!
    Found & removed 81 bad sector protections!
    Emulating RPC-2 drive with region 1!
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2007